Article on Shamima Begum

Sisters passport and she sold jewellery that I think she pinched from her family.

What I’m confused about is how did she manage to leave the country? If she was underage, was she allowed to board the plane on her own? I thought that wasn’t allowed without adult supervision.

Oh I see Singing's post has been deleted. Interesting. Well my point was pretty similar.

Kind of cross post with Singing but I don't see it as being about compassion either. I think it's about consistency of thinking.

I have no way of judging whether she's remorseful. I can't think of anything she can do or say that would convince me either way. But, if I'm going to question whether a child is capable of giving informed consent to some medical procedures - and I do - then I think it's equally reasonable to question whether they're capable of understanding concepts such as treason and renouncing citizenship.

She was a child but as an adult she has not shown remorse.

I also wonder if those saying 'she is our problem and should be dealt with here' say the same about immigrants to the uk? Should they be extradited to countries of birth if they commit offences here?

The grooming network is extremely effective, especially for young people. They latch on to vulnerable and impressionable people. They actively seek them out.
Apart from all that, though; she is British and therefore a British problem. Foisting her off on Syria (or anywhere else) is not really on- they have enough problems to deal with without these scumbags from all corners of the world being kept there indefinitely as well.

No matter what she did it doesn't change the fact that she's our responsibility. Foisting our terrorists off onto others is pretty despicable.

I agree she is our problem, and if she manages to make it back to the UK she should be tried under terrorism laws. Not one penny of taxpayer money should be spent getting her back though.

By the way, for those saying there is an undertone of racism - I am from the Middle East and had a Muslim upbringing. I am immensely grateful to this country for taking my family in and giving us opportunities we wouldn’t have had elsewhere, particularly for me growing up as a girl. It is unfathomable to me that you could grow up here, with all the privilege that includes, and seek to actively harm this country and identify with those terrorists, particularly their deep and visceral hatred of women. This is why I judge her so harshly.

The issue for me - and the one I always come back to - is that she was a child. That's what makes her case different for me. And while I realise that bringing her back to face justice would cause immense problems, I still think they're our problems.

Yes, totally agree. She was a child and this is important to remember.

I would also add that the arguments around her intelligence are wrong founded. Intelligence does not protect against grooming, just as it does not protect against child sexual abuse, domestic violence and all the other myriad of ways that women and girls are subjected to violence, abuse and control. Many highly intelligent women and girls are the victims of coercion, control and violence, and they are not less worthy of support because they are clever.

I'm finding this discussion interesting. Many women have discussed here the impact of ROGD, confused teenage girls trying to find a self of sense and community by identifying as trans, egged on by communities across the internet. How is this different?

CheshireSplat Sun 06-Jun-21 06:45:07
" For those saying she has forfeited her right to move in UK (a) where do you suggest she lives, and (b) why should that country have to pay to house her (and many others like her) and the expenses of keeping their own country safe?"

(a) she is in a camp under the kurds so that is where she should live. She may or may not ever get out of there. The UK gov would not pay to get me out of a Brazilian prison if I were caught with drugs nor would the Bangladeshi gov so I am sure it will be the same for her. If she does get out she has a right to a Bangladeshi passport. Bangladesh are not keen to have her but she can litigate there and her father can fund the court proceedings. She is also married to Dutchman I think who is also in a camp so may be if that sharia law marriage is recognised in Holland that gives her an additional right to explore.

(b) why would it cost anything for her to lice in Bangladesh.She would surely under islam be her father's property in effect and he would feed and keep her. This is what she likes - women as property of men who are told what to do. That is her birth culture and her chosen radical culture.

"She is British, she has to be our responsibility. We cannot wash our hands of her and make a poor country responsible."
She is not British. She has no British citizenship now.

I'll have to read the article again but I'm resistant to any approach that appears to be driven by trying to arouse my sympathy. Aside from losing her babies, I feel anger and frustration towards her more than I do pity.

However I don't think my personal feelings should be the issue here. The issue for me - and the one I always come back to - is that she was a child. That's what makes her case different for me. And while I realise that bringing her back to face justice would cause immense problems, I still think they're our problems.

That would make those who want an independent Scotland and Wales not citizens

This is such a reach.

Campaigning for independence within a democratic framework is a completely legitimate way of engaging in politics. If supporters of independence started beheading anyone who didn't support their ambitions I wouldn't lose any sleep over them having their citizenship revoked.

PersonaNonGarter

Also, she hasn’t expressed any remorse. If she’d have shown remorse and a genuine display of wanting help to change etc I could see myself sympathising more with her.
But the lack or remorse makes me feel like I can’t argue for her, yet it goes against my nature to leave her stranded like that as punishment that I can’t quite bring myself to say she deserves that.
So I’ll happily sit up here getting splinters in my arse and agree with all of you simultaneously!

For those who say she was young, look at how old the killers of Jamie Bulger were, and how they were treated by the press and the public at large.
For those who say she should come back to Britain, look at what happens to British people who commit crimes in South America or many parts of Asia, particularly drug smugglers, they are convicted and imprisoned there.
I think anyone who has joined these terrorist organisations - ISIL, Al Shabab, Boko Haram, will still be a danger when they come back to the UK, and our security services and government do not have a great record of keeping tabs on them as the various terrorist acts and scores of dead, innocent victims shows.

Quite appropriately politicians have concluded that the right thing to do is make an example of her. That is very, very harsh for her and for her family. But it is absolutely the right thing to do.

And really that reactionary nonsense about her father and Bangladesh is straight out of the ring wing racist play book

Nonsense. Her father is in Bangladesh is a statement of fact. He is entitled to be there because he is a Bangladeshi citizen. She is entitled to have Bangladeshi citizenship. The UK can only remove her UK citizenship if she has dual nationality.

It's no more "racist" than if her father was say, Canadian living in Canada.

Thank you for this!
When she had a baby I believed the baby should at least be brought to the safety of its family.
As for her, I’ve never been able to come down very strongly on either side or really argue against the points of either of them.

*Dozens, not concensus!