Just completing some Equality Act 'training' and apparently I got this question wrong...

Even in industries where men and women are paid identically, there is typically a sex gap in pay over a career, but it starts after women have children. It's to a very significant degree based on things like women taking more time off, working reduced hours, choosing positions with less travel or more flexible hours, etc. My husband's workplace is a good example, it's mostly scientific work, but it's civil service and female dominated, which is quite common in the civil service. Law positions in the civil service are similar. They pay less than private sector but the hours and accommodations for family life are better. But they are still considered to be in the same employment category for wage comparisons.

Even if you think women are being forced by expectations or socialisation or jerk men to make these choices, they come down to reproductive role impacting the types of positions and hours people work, which is not someone deciding to pay fathers more than mothers in the same job. My husband makes the same amount as the other people in his section even though he's not a mum.

I agree that the question is poorly worded.

I honestly don't know if either sex has an objective advantage in education today in Britain.

The fact that girls do better at school and in exams than boys is no doubt due to the various reasons already mentioned upthread. But I also think the higher percentage of girls in higher ed can be explained in part by the fact that for the last generation or so more girls from white working class backgrounds know that they need to aim higher to earn decent money as low-skilled jobs traditionally done by women tend to be much less well paid than those traditionally done by men.

Also perhaps girls just generally aim higher in terms of initial studies and career choices now because they want more for themselves than just to be wives and mothers. That they have been encouraged by their mothers, (mostly female?) teachers and perhaps policy is not them having an advantage. Saying that it is brings to mind that quotation "When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression".

Boys from the same backgrounds have had less incentive to study beyond age 16 when they see their fathers, uncles, older cousins doing well for themselves in the manual trades for example. This was certainly the case where and when I grew up.

A changing economy, increasingly tech-based world of work and the need to upskill could be said to put this category at a disadvantage. Someone upthread mentioned a lack of bursaries for white boys from disadvantaged backgrounds. This may or may not be the case but doesn't justify saying that boys as a group are at a disadvantage in education.

And men most definitely do have an unfair advantage in the workplace when it comes to earning potential. The pay gap is certainly far more due to a woman's choice (often familial and societal expectations) to at least temporarily take the focus away from her career, whether it's time spent as a sahm, cutting back hours or not going for promotion.

Until men also massively make those same choices to even out the balance, the inequality will remain.

@Imumme, I would really enjoy reading that study if you could provide a link or name .

That sounds so interesting! It's what I have always suspected from looking around me, but not what I have seen generally stated.

And that sexism is real.

I'm reminded of this at least once a week when someone assumes my older, male colleague is more senior than me. It gives me the rage.

I teach Sociology and just last week taught my students that the "fact" that girls outperform boys is a gross oversimplification and the truth is much more nuanced than that.

There was a study in the last year or two that showed there are lots of girls that really underperform, but this is masked by one subset of girls that massively over perform, making it look like Girls do better, but the initial statistics are misleading.

It's interesting stuff!

I belive it has been demonstrated that the idea that women dont ask for more money is a myth. Women do ask for more money, they just dont get it

I had to cover a full time teaching post in my school. Initially they paid me as support staff because it was only meant to be short term.
When it was clear it was long term. I was asked to continue and asked to be paid the teaching band I am qualified for. They said they couldn't afford it so I said no thanks.

My male colleague was then asked to cover only half the time with a qualified teacher. He got paid his band. I couldn't contest it because they could argue that he'd only been offered that pay for half time and not full time. They'd never offered me part time though.

I learned from that never to give anything for free. And that sexism is real.

Stonewall are making millions from training. This is now a money making machine

I belive it has been demonstrated that the idea that women dont ask for more money is a myth. Women do ask for more money, they just dont get it

"Both McKinsey’s research and the Do Women Ask? study found that while men and women ask for pay raises at broadly similar rates, women are more likely to be refused or suffer blowback for daring to broach the topic"

www.thecut.com/2019/03/women-do-ask-money-work-salary-raise.html

Indeed but being less willing to change jobs and less willing to negotiate pay or less willing do jobs that have a lower salary. Isn't an advantage for men either it's good business sense. As a childless woman who didn't take any career break and spent as much time in the workplace as men I fail to see how I have been discriminated against for my sex (not gender).

You may feel that as an individual you haven't been discriminated against or have been disadvantaged in your career due to your sex but women as a group most definitely have.

Also, some discrimination is so ingrained into work practices that it's hard to see.... same goes for people's unconscious biases too.

You also need to take into account how girls and boys learn to behave and which characteristics are praised or otherwise and then look at the characteristics which are often needed to be successful in the workplace. Not to mention how the same qualities are described differently for men and women.... men are assertive, women are bossy. Men are ambitious, women are ball breaking career women.

Why do we use the phrase Career women to describe a women who focuses on their career but we never hear the phrase 'career men'?

There's no reason motherhood should have a penalty when fatherhood doesn't, SmokedDuck.

Let's not pretend biology means we need to be paid less for the same job.

Exactly.
It also shouldn't have an impact on career progression..... but it does unfortunately.

There's no reason motherhood should have a penalty when fatherhood doesn't, SmokedDuck.

Let's not pretend biology means we need to be paid less for the same job.

There is also the issue of predominantly female jobs being routinely paid less. See recent case of supermarkets where shop floor (mostly female) won their case in comparison with warehouse (mostly men). The issue is the same in child care, social care etc. It isn't just a matter of maternity but how work is valued for it's contribution to society and overall GDP. There is still a tendency to undervalue jobs which are associated with the 'domestic sphere.'

This is (yet another) area where intersectionalism tends to fail. It says someone can be advantaged due to one characteristic (sex, say) and disadvantaged due to another. But it can't seem to deal with the same characteristic having creating both situations.

As others have pointed out, exam results as a measure of success is a pretty narrow one. So lets consider a different area and think who has the 'advantage' in schools.

Not having to be subject to sexual harassment and otherwise being safe and having ones boundaries respected in the education setting. Who has the advantage here? Who is most likely to leave education with the advantage of not having been sexually assaulted or objectified and the negative impact that has on individuals through life?

"Have an advantage" is a stupid phrasing of that question.

Women and girls may outperform men and boys in education, but that doesn't routinely lead to them "getting ahead", or being "in a superior position" - they just have better exam results. So what is this "advantage" that they are supposed to have? Exam results do not automatically --> higher paid jobs, better positions - and women are generally disadvantaged in those areas.

So it's a bollocks question.

And I'm really horrified that an international law firm refuses to acknowledge the actual terminology and meaning of the Equality Act 2010 in favour of "what a bunch of other companies think it means".
If the law companies don't understand the law, what fucking hope is there for anyone else?!

Not really. The pay gap is due to motherhood, not education.

And yet there's no disadvantageous pay gap between fathers and other men. On the contrary, fatherhood is an advantage on the workplace, fathers earn more than other men even if you take into account age seniority etc .
So fatherhood means you earn more but motherhood means you earn less. But there's no disadvantage...

This thread is evidence that people interpret "advantage" differently! So it was a crap question.

When truth is that both sexes are equally lazy, or hard working.

[CITATION NEEDED]

Most non-white racial groups outperform white boys at school. By the logic of this training module, this must mean that non-white teenagers don't experience racism in school 🙄

I spent years in clinical research. Some of the audits and questionnaires we got from professional organisations were so poorly written we wouldn't have got any meaningful data at all had we used them. We used have to spend a lot of time rewriting/redesigning data collection material before we could even start. I used to wonder what qualifications were needed to produce the material tbh. It happens everywhere.

I got a B in one my my favourite GCSE subjects because in the exam I had a killer headache and realised I was sitting in a pool of my own blood, flooding from a very bad period. If I was a boy there’s more chance I would have got my A. Still narks me decades later. Education is affected.

From a behaviour POV though, or looking at things like reading readiness, I think it's pretty clear that boys have a different developmental trajectory.