Boris Johnson in marrying as a "Catholic" has annulled his previous marriages and delegitimesed his children - these are the ethics of our current prime minister

• “Johnson’s marriage was never two people joined by God because he already vowed to God that he would marry in the Catholic Church, hence he was not married in the eyes of God as far as the church is concerned.

Thus spiritually this is his first and only marriage and he is entitled to the sacrament of marriage.*

This is really just smoke and mirrors.

mathanxiety I understand that the church recognise his first marriage as a civil marriage. If the Catholic Church had a habit of marrying people who were already married they would be breaking the law.

libertymole said:

“Johnson’s marriage was never two people joined by God because he already vowed to God that he would marry in the Catholic Church, hence he was not married in the eyes of God as far as the church is concerned.

Thus spiritually this is his first and only marriage and he is entitled to the sacrament of marriage.”

Therefore his previous marriage was not recognised as a spiritual marriage.

it’s all such complete and utter bollocks to any right-thinking person.

But other churches aren’t necessarily much better.

I can get married in my local C of E Church (if I weren’t already married), regardless of previous behaviour or religious affiliation, as long as I am marrying somebody of the opposite sex. The reason for that isn’t particularly logical. It all comes down to belief and church law.

His seriousness in entering the marriage is in question.

I’m not criticising the RC church here, I am criticising Johnson.

I can follow through the logic of the argument and I accept that whether or not I believe the same things, they are being consistent.

The point is that Johnson clearly wasn’t serious about either Catholicism or his marriage vows, in any sense of the words, religious or secular. To then have the traditional white church wedding was bleurgh, and looks like exploitation of ecclesiastical law to get the right wedding aesthetic.

However I’m not marrying him and Marina should have shown him the door years ago. On the other hand I can judge his moral character as PM.

Correct, hence Confirmation about 14 years later if you want to go through with it.

Ok, Johnson wasn’t confirmed in the Catholic faith, though, so he presumably didn’t actually “want to go through with it”.

@mathanxiety probably missing some complicated interpretation of the rules that means the second Vatican counsel didn’t change any doctrine, or some such other nonsense.

Honestly, the contortions of apologetics, meaning one needs to be a Doctor of Divinity to understand it all: it’s all such complete and utter bollocks to any right-thinking person.

@ScrollingLeaves, yes, free will, without which all the rest of it is moot.

Catholics are obliged to maintain an informed conscience.

One has no capacity to make such a grave vow as a child. So, he never actually agreed to become a member of the Catholic Church, if you really think about it.

Correct, hence Confirmation about 14 years later if you want to go through with it.

Didn't it do exactly that via the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s? Or am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing something.

...it was graceless to get married in a Catholic church on the basis that his 25 year marriage to Marina Wheeler was not fully recognised

It was fully recognised, and the RC church would not have married Boris and Carrie if he hadn't been legally divorced. The RC church is not saying this marriage never was. The issue was Johnson's flouting of the rules. His seriousness in entering the marriage is in question.

Centuries..probably millennia.

i don't think they could though, and if they did that would create a precedent where they could refuse to marry people for all sorts of subjective and political reasons.

They’ve been doing that for decades, to be fair.

I have not much skin in this, as I am not a Catholic, but to allow them to marry in their Cathedral is the act of terrible hypocrisy, when they had an opportunity to make a stand.

I don't think they could though, and if they did that would create a precedent where they could refuse to marry people for all sorts of subjective and political reasons. While many people dislike Boris Johnson, he is an elected head of state in a functioning democracy. It would be a bit odd for the Church to refuse to marry him simply because they didn't like his politics.

I do not for one moment think that Johnson takes Catholicism seriously, and I do think that , given his behaviour, it was graceless to get married in a Catholic church on the basis that his 25 year marriage to Marina Wheeler was not fully recognised. However, I also think that she is well shot of him.

‘Baptism is a ceremony. It means squat diddly in later life.’

Well indeed. And by that token for non believers a church wedding is just a ceremony no different from a civil ceremony so why does it matter to non believers who gets married in a church?

I don't know the technical minutiae of what is and isn't permitted under Canon law. My own parents had to marry in a registry office because my Dad was Catholic, and my mum was a divorced Protestant, but that was many years ago.

The thing is: the Catholic Church could probably easily have withheld permission if it wanted to. It does for many others.

I think it might depend on how you view Boris Johnson and his cabinet of scoundrels. For me, a combination of the chumocracy, ennobling donors and family, spending £37bn on Track and Trace while paying nurses a below inflation pay increase, refusing free school meals, unlawfully proroguing Parliament, calling human rights lawyers "do-gooder activists", refusing to act on a report calling out bullying, creating a hostile environment to EU visitors and residents, denying Erasmus, lying in Parliament, etc, etc, etc.... to me that means that the Catholic Church should have remembered its central mission.

They agreed to marry an adulteror who had an affair while his wife was battling cancer, whose previous lover had publicised a selfie taken in his marital home, whose earlier previous lover's child he has nothing to do with, and his earlier previous lover he bullied into having an abortion. Never mind that he engineered his exit from hospital last April to coincide with the Easter Monday resurrection, and announced his shitty Brexit deal on Christmas Eve.

His government is eroding democracy, undermining civic rights, and making this country a harsher and poorer place to live. I have not much skin in this, as I am not a Catholic, but to allow them to marry in their Cathedral is the act of terrible hypocrisy, when they had an opportunity to make a stand.

I didn't though.

And it makes it all the more ridiculous. Rather in keeping with this sham of a prime minister we have.

I just don't believe in religion and haven't done since a teenager, therefore the baptism means nothing to me.

You say that now, but it looks as though if you wanted to get married again in a Catholic Church, the baptism would mean that like Boris you would fulfil the criteria.

Baptism is a ceremony. It means squat diddly in later life.

I was baptised a catholic. I'm not lapsed. I just don't believe in religion and haven't done since a teenager, therefore the baptism means nothing to me.

So sure, if biology is illogical, this is illogical too.

He's not Henry VIII - she isn't the first lady.

Canon Law doesn't mean squat diddly when it comes to 'legitimacy'.

I divorced my first husband - no children. Married my second husband, three children. My first asked to go go through an annulment given there was a 'blessing' in a Catholic ceremony - we had previously married in a registry office. I put down non consummation. The annulment was given as there were no issues within the 'blessing'.

To put it more succinctly: It's all a load of shite and total bollocks.

I am not voting for him regardless of how many more times he’s got divorced by then!!

It is almost as if this is a private matter between Boris Johnson and the church which none of us are actually in a position to make a final judgement upon.

Not until 2nd May 2024 at the latest anyway.

‘but its (mad) doctrine won't let me because I was baptised as an infant and that, apparently, is a bond that cannot be broken?’

All sacraments are bonds that can’t be broken. I thought that was your point about how people should only be married once?

‘Those are big assumptions. Probably wise not to assert things as facts when we cannot be sure they are.’

Indeed. It is almost as if this is a private matter between Boris Johnson and the church which none of us are actually in a position to make a final judgement upon.