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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Any GC feminists with autism?

80 replies

GCandautistic · 29/05/2021 17:21

Hi all. NC for this. I am currently awaiting diagnosis for autism. I’m in my late 30s so it is a later life diagnosis. I am strongly gender critical but cannot be open about this at work. I am pretty high functioning in my career. I struggle a bit socially but not too badly.

One of the things I struggle with is how anyone can take gender ideology seriously. And also how someone can just not care. It’s just so blatantly a load of rubbish. Because this realisation about my autism is quite a recent one, I wonder whether being autistic has anything to do with my way of thinking. Obviously the majority of GC feminists will be NT but it would be interesting to hear from anyone who thinks their autism influences how they approach this issue.

OP posts:
Clarice99 · 30/05/2021 08:40

I was giving my own personal account of why I wouldn’t want to diagnose myself as I regard myself as mild.

I presume that you're not professionally qualified to 'diagnose' yourself. Most people aren't and even if they are, they can't. The assessment would have to be done by someone else who is qualified.

Self diagnosis is a misleading term. In order to have a diagnosis of anything, you have to have been seen by a person qualified to give that diagnosis. Without that, it's just an assumption, a thought.

You can 'self identify' not diagnose. But self identification doesn't mean it's correct. It's just your opinion. The same as self identification of 'gender'. A thought, a feeling.

Some people who 'diagnose' themselves with cancer can later be diagnosed with Munchausen syndrome (if it's found to be untrue and they are exposed).

I've noticed a lot of 'self identified' people who say they have autism defend their self identification by saying things like 'an assessment for diagnosis is meaningless, it won't help me' blah blah blah. The very nature of my autism meant that I had to have proper answers, I needed to know for definite and when I divulged it to my employer for reasonable adjustments to be made, I had the hard evidence to back up what I said. Self identity is 'shades of grey' and for me it was not enough and went against my personal beliefs.

I don't have a problem with people saying 'I think I may be autistic, I have quite a few traits and I can identify with the struggles autistic people talk about'. However, @WalkthisWayUK I find your comments offensive - 'mild autism' shows a lack of understanding of the condition.

I agree with points made by @RickiTarr. Thank you for your posts.

GCandautistic · 30/05/2021 08:37

Thank you @FindTheTruth. I’ve just re-read my OP and I think it’s maybe partly my fault for making out that my struggles are only mild. I think I meant more like what you would see if you were an outsider looking at my life. I do go to social events (well, pre-Covid) and I talk to people. I even make eye-contact (although I have to remind myself to do so). I have a job and a car and I have been a home-owner (and will hopefully be one again quite shortly). So, on paper, people might think well what’s the big deal?

The reality is something quite different. I now teach at a university. Yes, I have to have a lot of interaction during teaching but that is very structured - I know exactly when I have to do it and where. I get a lot of time to recharge my batteries and a lot of flexibility. It also makes sense to me now why I have no issues giving a lecture to 300 students but I can really struggle teaching a small group of students. But before teaching, I worked a pressurised office job and I nearly had a nervous breakdown. I remember leaving the office every evening and waiting for the train and thinking I should just jump on the tracks. It nearly broke me but thankfully I got out and did something that works better for me (although all the gender stuff in unis is taking it’s toll...)

Finding out that I have a high likelihood of autism (even though I have not yet been officially diagnosed) has been a revelation. It’s as if every single part of my life now makes sense. It explains why I was the one who struggled so much to make friends at school and uni, despite taking so much care to look and dress and talk like all the other girls. Why some people seemed to just take an instant dislike to me when they met me. Why, if I dated, it would always inevitably fizzle out even if I masked like crazy. Why I struggle with things like keeping my house or work desk organised and it wasn’t just laziness. Why I have been accused of being rude, inappropriate and excessively blunt without being able to understand why. Why people often laugh at what I say when I haven’t even tried to be funny (someone suggested I should be a stand-up comedian once - the absolute worst job for me!).

I listened to Holly Smale, the author, on Woman’s Hour this week. She’s around my age and has just been diagnosed. She likened it to thinking you’re a duck but you’re actually a frog. When you think you’re a duck, you think you’re a failure and a loser because you can’t do the things the other ducks can. But when you realise you’re a frog, you realise that actually, you have other skills and why were you trying to be something you weren’t.

I am already starting to be so much kinder to myself now. I no longer make my ‘on Monday, I will start being a Normal Person’ resolutions that would inevitably go all wrong. I am going to start doing things for me rather than what society expects. There’s no point in trying to fit in with something you can never measure up to. I also hope to maybe make some contact with other ND women rather than feeling out of place with NT friends. Basically it feels like a potentially fresh start (an actual one rather than all the other ‘fresh starts’ i previously made when I couldn’t understand what was wrong with me).

OP posts:
FindTheTruth · 30/05/2021 07:24

💐OP, your words are helping me and other women here. And on the point of recognising female autism, I think it would bring huge relief to girls (and transform their lives) if they knew they had autism in their early years. So that girls can understand how Autism affects them, share experiences and develop tools to deal with the common experiences you and other women on here have had.

GCandautistic · 30/05/2021 05:56

I do of course recognise that autistic people have hugely varying levels of needs and I can see that as the parent of a child with a high level of need, you might get frustrated at people who appear to function almost normally using the same label.

But it’s worth bearing in mind that women have been so underdiagnosed through history due precisely to the points you have made. We look like we function but that’s a mask. Personally, when/if I seek out diagnosis, I will primarily use it for peace of mind. I certainly have no intention of taking away from any services for those with a higher need.

And while I can function without intervention, ‘mild’ probably isn’t a good term. I periodically suffer crippling bouts of depression where I can’t get out of bed, I struggle with relationships and am a target for abusive and manipulative men because I seem to repel most others by being ‘weird’, I have seriously considered ending my life on too many occasions to list. My ‘function’ comes from being able to hold
down a relatively well-paying job, being articulate and having a few friends. That and my masking ability means that most who met me probably would just think I was a bit aloof and distant rather than thinking anything more serious was wrong. That doesn’t mean that life isn’t massively challenging though. It’s exhausting and sometimes you also realise that some of the stuff that you thought was normal really isn’t. For instance, I’ve discovered that it’s not normal to have a 3-hour crying fit when you are told of some changes at work. Nor is it normal to rehearse conversations for even minor social interactions over and over in your head. But these were just things that I didn’t question myself doing.

I absolutely welcome increased recognition of female autism. Women are forced to develop high levels of masking and coping strategies partly because society won’t let us be who we are.

OP posts:
FindTheTruth · 30/05/2021 04:35

@FrankensteinIsTheMonster

Namechangecosguilty — you see a lot of young low-support-needs autistics heavily involved in gender-ideology stuff, and I think there's a few reasons behind that:
  • Many are preoccupied with fairness, and this is the current most fashionable social justice campaign
  • Most will have personal experience of what it feels like to be the outsider, and instinctively side with those they perceive to be in that position
  • Many societal gender roles and norms are arbitrary and not backed up by logic, leading autistics to question them, and modern gender ideology is often the main thing they come across when they start to investigate
  • Many autistics will struggle to play the gender role society allocates to people of their sex (and would struggle with playing any societally-imposed roles, because of the nature of their brains) and genderism provides an explanation and a get-out

Additionally, a lot of online "autistic" communities have moved heavily towards a self-ID framework. Identifying as "autistic" (regardless of whether one would meet diagnostic criteria including the requirement for symptoms to have significant detrimental impact on say-to-day-functioning) shares many benefits with, and had a great deal in common with, identifying as gender-variant in some way. A ready-made and validating community, vindication of one's differentness/specialness, the ability to claim one is disadvantaged or subject to discrimination, justification for flouting arbitrary social rules, and so on. The individuals who are drawn to identifying as some variety of "queer" are often the same ones who are drawn to identifying as "neurodivergent". So in addition to there being what seems to be genuinely high levels of autistic people who are of a minority sexual orientation or identify as gender-variant in some way, there's also lots of people describing themselves as queer and autistic who haven't been assessed for autism, don't want to be assessed for autism, and IMO likely wouldn't meet criteria if they were.

So caring about fairness, feeling like an outsider, questioning societal gender roles and struggling to play a societally-imposed role. Really resonates @FrankensteinIsTheMonster

What difference would it make if everyone with autism, got diagnosed as a child? And then had access to a ready-made and validating community, independent of ideology?

Thanks OP and PPs.

RickiTarr · 30/05/2021 02:01

That is why me saying that autism is not one big homogenous tribe has triggered you I imagine. I’m not here for a bun fight. So I’ll leave this thread.

Oh Lordy. Confused

I would say the only one single thing that all autists have in common is a diagnosis. So it might be best if all the “self-identifying as autistic but here to stick my oar in” crew steered clear, yes. Not everybody is as thick skinned as I am and it’s not really fair.

RickiTarr · 30/05/2021 01:57

I’m slightly alarmed that anyone with “a relevant background” would use the world “mild” in relation to autism with any level of functioning, TBH.

Yes I see you are quite angry as you subscribe to the ‘we are all a tribe’ autism

No I’m not angry and I don’t subscribe to tribal anything. I’m not sure that’s even a recognised stance. You’re making that up.

but OTOH we can be quite obsessive

Ah you see the operative word there is “can”. We don’t all have to be the same. I’m just recognising that it’s something that some people with an autism diagnosis experience.

WalkthisWayUK · 30/05/2021 01:53

Yes I see you are quite angry as you subscribe to the ‘we are all a tribe’ autism and use the word ‘we’ for autistics which I personally find exceptionally offensive. You cannot speak for every other autistic person. @RickiTarr ‘Yes I think autists are very fact-orientated so should be immune to the less scientifically-based belief systems overall, but OTOH we can be quite obsessive

That is why me saying that autism is not one big homogenous tribe has triggered you I imagine. I’m not here for a bun fight. So I’ll leave this thread.

WalkthisWayUK · 30/05/2021 01:44

@RickiTarr

I would meet the criteria for autism however I’m not going to get diagnosed because I feel that I am so mild compared to my DS, and so many people are now telling me ‘what autism means’ when they mean an adult female relatively mild presentation, like me basically. It makes me sad as no one wants to hear about the real struggles DS has.

If you’re experiencing something “mild” that doesn’t cause you “real struggles” you’re unlikely to meet the diagnostic threshold. Maybe you just have a couple of traits?

In any case, it’s grossly unfair and rather rude to self-diagnose, and then come onto a thread full of autistic women and tell us we aren’t autistic enough to count but hey “it’s not a criticism!” (It is.)

I would meet the criteria and I’ve a relevant background so I do know this. It is true that the diagnosis has broadened and I would not have got a diagnosis probably 20-30 years ago. I am upfront in that I was replying to the OP asking if there are any GC and autistic people out there, and many on this thread, including the OP, have not been diagnosed but strongly suspect, so it’s a relevant discussion to bring up my own thoughts about my own autistic traits + GC.

I was giving my own personal account of why I wouldn’t want to diagnose myself as I regard myself as mild. In fact I don’t think what I have, should be labelled autism, but that is my personal view. I regard a diagnosis as something for those who have a degree of severity with their struggles and personally I do feel that there should be another word for those like me, so that I would not detract from the autism DS has. It’s such a struggle to get even basic therapies for him for example and in the media I rarely see ‘him’ at all. Me and my DS are absolutely poles apart in struggles.

I was in no way saying to anyone in the thread that they were mild or otherwise, and in no way saying that others going for a diagnosis is a bad thing. In fact I wished the OP well and hoped getting a diagnosis would help her. I was speaking for my own view on getting my own diagnosis.

RickiTarr · 30/05/2021 01:40

@Lisatried

I’ve not been diagnosed but have my suspicions. I struggle with gender as a concept full stop, whether that is having to perform it or recognise other people’s. Men wearing dresses &c just doesn’t strike me as noticeable or odd or a ‘thing’. I know it’s meant to. It’s like it’s just ‘person in clothes’, nothing to see there. I think it might be something to do with difficulty spotting patterns and deviations from patterns generally.
That’s a very good description.
RickiTarr · 30/05/2021 01:40

Yes, I’ve seen discussions from Self ID ‘autistics’ that were very angry that anyone would dare challenge them. It made me quite angry in defense of my DS I guess.

Confused

You have just done the EXACT same thing.

WalkthisWayUK · 30/05/2021 01:33

@WhoNeedsaManOfTheWorld

So many self identify as asd too. It appears trendy Confused
Yes, I’ve seen discussions from Self ID ‘autistics’ that were very angry that anyone would dare challenge them. It made me quite angry in defense of my DS I guess. It felt like someone impersonating someone in a wheelchair. However it really was very similar arguments to the trans/gender crowd - and very similar saying that challenging someone who says that they ‘autistic’ or asking for any ‘evidence’ was discriminatory, awful, hateful etc.

I think this worries me more than anything. Saying you are something/one that you are not - and then attacking with fury those that challenge that. That’s quite scary!

RickiTarr · 30/05/2021 01:28

I would meet the criteria for autism however I’m not going to get diagnosed because I feel that I am so mild compared to my DS, and so many people are now telling me ‘what autism means’ when they mean an adult female relatively mild presentation, like me basically. It makes me sad as no one wants to hear about the real struggles DS has.

If you’re experiencing something “mild” that doesn’t cause you “real struggles” you’re unlikely to meet the diagnostic threshold. Maybe you just have a couple of traits?

In any case, it’s grossly unfair and rather rude to self-diagnose, and then come onto a thread full of autistic women and tell us we aren’t autistic enough to count but hey “it’s not a criticism!” (It is.)

WalkthisWayUK · 30/05/2021 01:23

I would meet the criteria for autism however I’m not going to get diagnosed because I feel that I am so mild compared to my DS, and so many people are now telling me ‘what autism means’ when they mean an adult female relatively mild presentation, like me basically. It makes me sad as no one wants to hear about the real struggles DS has.

This is not a criticism OP! I completely respect your decision and need to pursue your own diagnosis. It may well help. However from my perspective the ‘diagnosis’ is now so broad that for it to have any real meaning to you, think and ask about what that means for you. Is it executive functioning? Is it high anxiety? Is it difficulties with language? Don’t hang all of you onto autism, think of specific things in you that are strengths and struggles, unique to you.

Sorry a bit long winded. For me I am most worried about GC and my DS, and the pressures he will face in school and from peers as he gets older. He’s just such a prime candidate to be honest. He’s quite fluid in how he is, and is taking a long time to figure out what he likes in life. The gender identity crowd will make him feel he has to box what he is, and the bullying nature of some peers that I’ve heard of through other parents - it’s very intense and a bit scary!

But back to your point, yes I think this is all very emperor has new clothes - why can’t people see the nonsensical nature of much of it?!

Lisatried · 30/05/2021 01:11

I’ve not been diagnosed but have my suspicions. I struggle with gender as a concept full stop, whether that is having to perform it or recognise other people’s. Men wearing dresses &c just doesn’t strike me as noticeable or odd or a ‘thing’. I know it’s meant to. It’s like it’s just ‘person in clothes’, nothing to see there. I think it might be something to do with difficulty spotting patterns and deviations from patterns generally.

MeadowHay · 29/05/2021 21:07

Hi, yes I'm here too. Late twenties, I was diagnosed whilst at uni about 10 years ago. I called myself non-binary when that probably first started to become a 'thing' also about a decade ago - but I was always gender critical, even then, I just didn't have the right language/tools to express it, and I didn't think much about the wider implications for trans activism as I was naive and welcomed by LGBTQ groups when I was struggling to find a place elsewhere (I should say I am also bisexual too).

BlackeyedSusan · 29/05/2021 20:59

@FrankensteinIsTheMonster

I will be very upset if my comments explaining how my social disability makes the requirements of gender ideology very difficult for me to follow are deleted.
which would then be disability discrimination?
Springchickpea · 29/05/2021 20:49

I have an autistic child. I don’t have a diagnosis myself, but I have my suspicions. I’m this context, I find it very difficult to lie or speak what I consider to be untrue. I often use the word sex, because I mean sex, and not gender. I have very rigid thought patterns in this area, and asking me to believe in the concept of ‘gender’ is akin to asking me to believe in god. I just don’t, and the evidence I have doesn’t support that hypothesis anyway. I don’t believe I have a gender identity. I am a woman, but that is more to do with my biology and status as ‘mother’. I probably identify more strongly with ‘nerd’ than I do with the female gender.

Alicethruthelookingglass · 29/05/2021 20:38

FWIW,
I am very much older. Grew up before girls were even considered for autism unless the symptoms were absolutely obvious. I have had some testing and I have been told to seek a diagnosis, but this was right before covid, LOL, but it's been almost 60 years so what's a few more?

I've done OK so far, but the thing is, 60 years later, all those social routines and sub-routines are breaking down. It is exhausting to put this much work into dealing with others and when i get exhausted, then the echolalia and other compulsive speech erupts.

I will lie about a friend's dress. Like someone said above, I'll find something that is positive. The color, a detail, etc. This is so different. To have to search my memory banks everytime I meet a person for pronouns (never mind they can arbitrarily change) as well as recognizing their face and associating their name with it and playing make believe with them about who they are...well at that point, I give up.

My son is ASD, diagnosed as a child, he's in his thirties now and is, as they say, a productive member of society.Neither of us can understand the gender stuff. It just seems so foolish to try to lie to everyone, including yourself as to who you are.

I do remember wishing I could be a boy around puberty. Mostly because girls' worlds start getting smaller and more socially managed at that point. I wore a lot of the seventy's unisex clothing and was lucky to have the chance to grow up when my mom and my friend's moms were establishing careers in the wake of the second wave. I became a woman who went into a 'male' field in my own right.

I'm so glad my son was born before the internet. He encountered it later, but before social media was a thing. I think he also did well because I fought to get him into a special program/school that featured small class size, disallowed and actively policed the kind of bullying usually tolerated on a high school campus, etc. I think some of the autistic men who take on the message that they are not men, but non-men (must be women then, what's that about a binary again?) have been subjected to that kind of verbal abuse from others. The internet and isolation has just made it worse.

Both of us agree that you can't change sex. He is one of the few people I've been able to talk to about this since 2015 when I discovered it and discovered that he'd known about it longer. We agree that the sterilization of gay and autistic children as well as children under care to be one of the most chilling occurrences in this whole episode.

GCandautistic · 29/05/2021 20:24

Hi everyone! Great to know that I am not alone.

OP posts:
DoingItMyself · 29/05/2021 20:07

Hi. Older than you, gc, feminist and autistic as fuck.

WhoNeedsaManOfTheWorld · 29/05/2021 20:03

I can see the appeal at school age. I spent a lot of time wondering how others just knew how to act and fit in. If you are offered a reason and a supportive group I can see why children pin their issues onto gender. Sadly it likely causes more problems than it solves

EndTable · 29/05/2021 19:33

I could have written your OP word for word, GCandautistic. You're not alone.

Clarice99 · 29/05/2021 19:18

@FrankensteinIsTheMonster

I will be very upset if my comments explaining how my social disability makes the requirements of gender ideology very difficult for me to follow are deleted.
Me too.

But I'm expecting it as it always happens on here.

Clarice99 · 29/05/2021 19:17

@WhoNeedsaManOfTheWorld

So many self identify as asd too. It appears trendy Confused
I've noticed that too.

I disagree with self identification of anything. My thoughts are 'label yourself what you will, it doesn't make you so'.