Elliot Page undergoes “lifesaving” “top surgery”

Scans of post surgical trans people brains are similar in one respect , showing signs of having experienced trauma

On average also women are more likely to have signs of that than men

But men can have that also and it's something squired over life not something people are born with

There was a paper that had to issue a correction to explain that was what they had seen

"if you look at brain scans of trans people, their brains are literally made like the brain of their identified gender."

Doesn't a 'female' brain inside a male body disprove the very idea that there are gendered brains? If a male has a female brain, that means that brains aren't gendered! Brains would only be gendered if only males had 'male' brains and only females had 'female' brains.
(And as an aside...in my grad school neuroscience classes, none of the lecturers thought the human brain was sexually dimorphic.)

I remember reading this a while back:

www.amazon.com/Delusions-Gender-Society-Neurosexism-Difference/dp/0393340244?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

"Drawing on the latest research in neuroscience and psychology, Cordelia Fine debunks the myth of hardwired differences between men’s and women’s brains, unraveling the evidence behind such claims as men’s brains aren’t wired for empathy and women’s brains aren’t made to fix cars. She then goes one step further, offering a very different explanation of the dissimilarities between men’s and women’s behavior. Instead of a “male brain” and a “female brain,” Fine gives us a glimpse of plastic, mutable minds that are continuously influenced by cultural assumptions about gender.

Passionately argued and unfailingly astute, Delusions of Gender provides us with a much-needed corrective to the belief that men’s and women’s brains are intrinsically different―a belief that, as Fine shows with insight and humor, all too often works to the detriment of ourselves and our society."

Brain scans can’t reliably differentiate between male and female brains, for starters. The only consistently reliable difference that’s been found is that male brains are slightly bigger on average, just as male bodies are. Talking about male and female brains makes as much sense as talking about male or female kidneys or lungs: they’re male if they’re in a male body, and female if they’re in a female body.

I call hard bullshit on that one.

What about Pip Bunce, who is a woman half the time, and a man the other half?

What's his brain then? Not pink or blue but a sort of hazy purplish?

if you look at brain scans of trans people, their brains are literally made like the brain of their identified gender - which makes it a different scenario again

This doesn't even mean anything. It's baseless bullshit.

their brains are literally made like the brain of their identified gender

Do you mean sex, or gender?

Do you mean a trans woman’s brain looks like a female brain and not a male brain and that they are therefore female?

If so, why does their brain shape decide what they are and not their body shape? I’m taller that the average man, so you could say my height is just like that of a man. So does that make me a man? If not, why would a male-looking brain make me a man?

Also, have the brain shapes of GNC people who do not identify as trans been compared as well? Maybe there are a range of brain shapes in both sexes, like there are shapes of all body parts. What if a butch lesbian has a male looking brain? Is she therefore a n if she doesn’t think she is?

And lastly, if you can tell if someone is trans by a brain scan, then we should not be allowing self ID or taking seriously any claim to be trans. We should just do a brain scan, surely? That would make sure no one transitions who isn’t really trans and then people wouldn’t end up detransitioning. That makes the most sense doesn’t it?

These are genuine questions that I’d like to know the answers to.

if you look at brain scans of trans people, their brains are literally made like the brain of their identified gender - which makes it a different scenario again.

This has been disproven, hasn't it?

if you look at brain scans of trans people, their brains are literally made like the brain of their identified gender - which makes it a different scenario again.
Where's your evidence of this? As far as I'm aware, male and female brains are almost identical and indistinguishable from each other apart from size factors.
And it’s been repeatedly proven that gender confirmation surgery does reduce suicide ideation/attempts in trans people. It’s not really something we can debate or argue because there’s the data behind it.
Show us the data.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

It’s an interesting perspective. For example , most of the clients I have worked with an ED don’t view weight loss in that sense, as in many of them want to stop the restrictive eating but can’t . Likewise for the desire of skin flaying ( , etc. There’s often a root cause for self harming that isn’t something that is core to a person’s being … so I don’t believe the analogy holds.

While I’m not familiar with the gender confirmation surgery procedure in the states, at least in the UK, there would be lots of therapy first. If the basis of his decision to have top-surgery was in a form of self harm or mental illness I would have hoped that would have come out in therapy.

if you look at brain scans of trans people, their brains are literally made like the brain of their identified gender - which makes it a different scenario again. As far as I’m aware, there’s no difference in the brain scans of someone who is ginger or freckled or someone who is not? I’m prepared to be corrected on this. But I as someone who is very definitely female (and probably more stereotypically female than I care to admit) - I can only imagine how hard it would be if I had to exist in a male body or abide by society’s gender expectations.

And it’s been repeatedly proven that gender confirmation surgery does reduce suicide ideation/attempts in trans people. It’s not really something we can debate or argue because there’s the data behind it. So we have to accept that the data demonstrates it is life-saving regardless of our personal beliefs.

*AdHominemNonSequitur

Honestly, transphobia is becoming a meaningless claim. Concerns about double mastectomies and lack of belief in gender identity is not transphobia. Even if it were, coming in and trying to spin yourself as morally superior, scattergunning accusations of hate ,transphobia and unkind motivations at all and sundry is far more heinous a crime against other humans than being critical about how someone defines themselves. If I wasn't convinced that you mistakenly but genuinely believe this nonsense, your actions would be unambiguously hateful. I can't quite get past the feeling that there is a certain enjoyment in the excuse to exercise your less compassionate tribal qualities. Like the crowds who used to attend executions. Justification for indulging some very unattractive personality traits.

You are correct, I do honestly believe it is crass to post a emoticon in response to posts expressing concerns about irresponsible reporting. To quote JK, I do not think it is hateful to say so. I don't think I'm mistaken either.

I respect you a lot, and will continue to so, but I am happy to disagree with you and koolandorthegang on this one.

There is often an undercurrent on this and other threads from some posters that it's somehow their moral duty to disagree with anything a feminist says, in order to support trans people. I don't agree with that in general, but dismissing concerns about infringements of the Samaritan guidelines in order to own the feminists is the absolute nadir of it.

Children and young adults experiencing gender-related distress are just like children and young adults experiencing any other type of distress of the same severity: vulnerable. They're not a special case for which the Samaritan guidelines don't apply.

Plus I suppose that's all been magnified so much by the social isolation wrought by the pandemic, and teenagers have spent more than a year essentially online, and as their parents were working, unsupervised.

God it's so depressing ivytwines2. What an appalling world for young people.

@Erikrie 'But for this generation there's not much left for them. Not in a safe way anyway. It's all been done.' I'm not involved in the music scene but I think the appetite for a music scene would probably still be there if it was around, but there has been a 'perfect storm' destroying it: music piracy meant it wasn't as lucrative a business, 'gentrification' and soaring rents destroying the city centre venues and rehearsal rooms where bands could get started, even changes in benefits which, as Noel Gallagher pointed out, meant young people from less well off backgrounds couldn't sit in bedrooms learning to play the guitar. Gaming has largely taken its place, but it's essentially solitary, for all the talk of 'community', and its users lose touch with reality. When you went to a club or hung out in a shopping mall you'd meet other teenagers in all their unvarnished three dimensional spotty, sweaty reality. Now teenagers view each other through filters and curated pics displaying a perfect life with all the rough edges smoothed off.

Much higher expectations of what is achievable, have led to a shift in sense of how much external control we have over the construction of our own appearance and therefore reality. It's all a mirage.

As detransitioners describe, after the initial elation and attention, I predict he will not yet able to be his real self after all and focus and dissatisfaction will shift to his other feminine features, hips, or voice, or vagina. Until it has all been done and there is still a gaping spiritual hole.

At that stage I think a person either realises what the ideology really is and becomes GC, or blame then shifts onto society...its transphobia, if only I could be more accepted for who I am...

We already accept you exactly as you are. As a person. Masculine and feminine in whatever unique combination makes you. There was never any need for the Oscar gowns and contouring, (unless you wanted to). How can people not see this?

This quote is what really bothers me. I'm sure Page thinks he is raising the alarm, but actually it's horrifically manipulative and opens the doors to this kind of thinking in what are very obviously distressed and vulnerable children.

If you are going to [ban it], and if you are going to ban trans people from sports, children will die. Its that simple. Its really that simple.”

'Ban it' refers to trans healthcare (which clearly exists because Page has made use of it) and as for the sports comments... I find that despicable.

No trans person is banned from sport. For reasons of safety and equality they should compete within their sex class. That's all.

Think how many music shows were on mainstream TV in the 1980s, and how they gave children and teenagers a way to be 'tribal',

Yes I totally agree that this is the case for a lot of people. I guess every generation has the need to branch out / change / shock the older generations. But for this generation there's not much left for them. Not in a safe way anyway. It's all been done. Thus gender politics and extreme modification arrives. And they're being used. But they don't even know it. They've got big organisations pushing this narrative towards them for their own numerous gains, gender doctors and surgeons pushing their wares on the likes of tiktok. And they have a platform where they can engage in mass tribalism. But this time it's really dangerous. And instead of the adults stepping forward to help them, because they just can't say no, they're letting them get on with it, despite the physical and emotional cost to them. And the adults who do try to help are silenced. Or they were. Things are finally getting better but it's still not good enough. I dread to think how these young people are going to feel in 20 years time, with their damaged bodies, their inability to conceive, the fact that they are now a 'patient' for life. And they're going to be asking why the adults didn't look after them. The teachers, the doctors, the parents. Instead they stood back and watched them destroy themselves and their futures.

Yes. I remember when I realised that despite my wishes I was not a boy and would not become one, aged about 8. It was hard to accept in a way, but in another, a step towards growing up and understanding myself. It happened because it was scientifically accepted and true that you couldn't actually change sex and that was what I had to come to terms with, and I did.

The sad thing is it's still true - you still can't change sex - trying to can cause vast amounts of harm, pain and regret, and will never result in you actually being the opposite sex. But now we are lying to kids about it.

My main criticism about all this being spun as life saving and a human right, (aside from not thinking there is a quick external fix for internal psychological suffering), is that surgery and hormonal manipulation has only existed as a viable option for a few decades.

People weren't suicidal about not being able to amputate body parts, until it became an option.

The technology and ability was just not there, non lifesaving (in the real sense) surgery was not a thing. At all. People would have to reconcile themselves to their own body, as it is and were satisfied with much less radical changes. Gender dysphoria, particularly in girls was vanishingly rare, in spite of much stricter gender norms.

People on this thread have mentioned goth and emo - they were excellent as they gave teenagers, especially girls, a means to opt out of a sexualising body culture in their teenage years and adopt a clothing style that covered the body, whilst remaining cool.

That's such a good point. Though I wasn't fully "goth" as I wasn't much of a joiner, I wore black body-disguising goth clothes through most of my teenage years, and I now see that that was as a response to sexual abuse.

I also remember seeing Boy George, Adam Ant, Annie Lennox and many more on TOTP in the 80s and how freeing and permission-giving they were. That you could wear what you liked and express yourself and it didn't have to be along gender sterotyped lines. Sex didn't come into it because it wasn't about that.

Its not even about trans people. Anyone can express themselves and believe things about themselves or others as they wish, we all do it. It’s just where those actions based on those beliefs impact on other people’s rights. It’s fine to have women however they identify in terms of gender or anything else, how they dress, or express themselves in women’s spaces, communities, opportunities, sports, hospital wards, prisons, education. Men- absolutely not. However those men might identify, dress, express themselves. Which we can’t know and don’t need to know anyway. Because sex, not gender is the unchangeable and pertinent fact here.
It’s never been in the list of anyone’s allowable ‘rights’ that they can live in a way that stops others from freely enjoying their own basic rights to privacy, dignity, safety, freedom of speech, freedom of association and community-building, dedicated charity resources for their own sex and so on.

@Lovemusic33 I think part of the problem is that today's generation have completely lost the music cultures that allowed previous generations of teenagers to experiment with identities and find communities in a safe way. Think how many music shows were on mainstream TV in the 1980s, and how they gave children and teenagers a way to be 'tribal', experiment with clothes, including make up for boys, and distance themselves from parents, who'd be muttering opinions of the various groups while they watched.

People on this thread have mentioned goth and emo - they were excellent as they gave teenagers, especially girls, a means to opt out of a sexualising body culture in their teenage years and adopt a clothing style that covered the body, whilst remaining cool.