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Original poster

Mixed feelings young "transmen" cutting themselves off from womanhood

107 replies

howtocomplain · 24/05/2021 21:48

I just caught up with an old friend, and it turns out her 19 year old DD is identifying as a man. I saw several pictures of her child, who is using a male male and he/him or they/them pronouns, but still wearing a lot of feminine clothes and still wears makeup. All that seems to have changed since they came out, is this young person has died their hair bright colours and is dressing more alternative / punkish.

This young person is in a relationship with a young (biological) man and they say that they're gay.

On the one hand I recognise young people like to push boundaries and experiment, but on the other hand I feel there's something really sinister about society encouraging young women to cut themselves off from feminism and sisterhood by denying they're even female.

And I must admit I'm not happy with the idea of them calling themselves a gay couple, I feel it's a fucking insult to actual gay people and a trivialisation of what so many gay people have endured. These two are never going to be subjected to homophobic abuse or have to deal with discrimination for being gay, are they, as they plainly look like a heterosexual couple.

I don't know if this young person is taking hormones. I hope not.

OP posts:
aliasundercover · 25/05/2021 23:36

This reply has been deleted

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aliasundercover · 25/05/2021 23:33

I think I had a post removed for saying that if one of a couple is female they are not gay. Is that really against the guidelines here?

Original poster
howtocomplain · 25/05/2021 17:47

@Tibtom

They aren't cutting themselves off from womanhood. Only women can be transmen so it is simply a rather extreme version of womanhood. Everything about being a transman reflects the fact that they are a woman.
I think they are, potentially.

A young non-binary woman I know, was reluctant to get help from a women's project when she was made homeless with her young daughter, as she said she found it difficult to identify as a woman to get that help.

She had lots of trauma in her past and I think identifying out of womanhood was her way of coping with that.

But that means women who have experienced discrimination or abuse because of being women, are shutting themselves off from a feminist analysis and support from women who understand what they've endured from a female - and feminist - perspective.

This is what worries me about young women identifying out of womanhood. My friend's child, who looks very much like a young woman, is not going to be any less at risk of discrimination and sexual abuse from men because of a gender identity of "man". But this young person may find it hard to get help from people who understand the context of what happened if they are going to not approach services, help or advice aimed at women and run by feminist women.

And the answer isn't services aimed at everyone, as the whole point is about recognising how women are uniquely or disproportionately at risk of certain abuse and discrimination because we are women. Once you move to a non-specialised approach, this is lost.

Listen to on how important feminism and women's solidarity is in services for women.

OP posts:
Cailleach1 · 25/05/2021 15:42

In reference to the deployment of transmen during pregnancy. I remember a newspaper article about a man becoming pregnant. Told OH there was a man having a baby. Read a little on where it said that the supposed pregnant man had been born female.

'So not a man becoming pregnant', said my OH.

OH has a science background, so doesn't get confused as easily as some other people about these sort of things.

SirVixofVixHall · 25/05/2021 15:32

@AtrociousCircumstance

Yeah it’s this kind of identification which denies what real homophobia means, denies what real sexism means. Coasts along on ignorance and solipsism.

It’s narcissistic and ultimately fuels patriarchal stereotypes.

Agree. I find it incredibly offensive for a heterosexual couple to call themselves gay. I hope they are embarrassed by this when they grow older.
Stealhsquirrelnutkin · 25/05/2021 15:29

Not your place. Especially as heterosexuals - who seem to be the loudest voices on this subject.

Funny you should say that, because as an actual lesbian, (an adult human female sexually oriented exclusively towards other adult human females), I am personally outraged by the army of heterosexual males who think their subjective gender identity entitles them to invade lesbian space denouncing lesbians for being same sex orientated.

The name for people who are attracted to others regardless of their gender identity is PANSEXUAL. It is not bisexual, lesbian or gay. Please recognise your own homophobia and try to do better in future.

Tibtom · 25/05/2021 15:02

They aren't cutting themselves off from womanhood. Only women can be transmen so it is simply a rather extreme version of womanhood. Everything about being a transman reflects the fact that they are a woman.

RoyalCorgi · 25/05/2021 13:34

So you directly refute the post right before yours, and see shed's post about missing lesbian clubs as her defining other people's sexuality.

It's almost as if yeahbutnaw is just another old-fashioned homophobic misogynist.

yeahbutnaw: how dare you, how fucking dare you, minimise the suffering and oppression that so many gay men and women have experienced over the centuries by pretending that a heterosexual couple can define themselves as gay? Utterly vile.

howard97A · 25/05/2021 13:07

Just had a thought. I'm a woman in a relationship with a woman, so we're lesbians. We don't use contraception. But if I identify as male we could be a straight couple and I presume I could I get my partner pregnant? Do I need to use a condom? How would I use a condom when I don't have a penis?

No problem Shedbuilder

You could just pretend that you are using a condom, and that’s why she isn’t getting pregnant. That would work.

It would work even better if you were to go to the pharmacy and buy some condoms. If you wanted to save money, you could buy re-useable ones.

Even cheaper, you could just pretend she’s on the pill.

And cheaper still, you could pretend that although you identify as a man you are actually both women, so she can’t actually get pregnant.

Thelnebriati · 25/05/2021 12:51

If other people tell you that your 'progressive' movement is driving human rights backwards then it is your responsibility to stop and listen.

The dominant group erasing the oppressed and endangered group is the definition of cultural genocide. Its not progressive and its not kind.

There are legal definitions for 'man', 'women', 'gay' and 'lesbian'. If you aren't aware of why they were needed in the first place then count yourself lucky.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 25/05/2021 12:41

Curious what yeahbutnaw thinks about this.

Relevant extracts for those using screenreaders.

This is Stonewall's description of the current legal landscape.

SEX BY DECEPTION
Recent ‘sex by deception’ cases involving trans people and gender identity issues have revealed an alarming lack of clarity around trans people’s rights and obligations to disclose or not disclose their trans history to their sexual partners.
These cases demonstrate that it is possible for non-disclosure of a person’s trans status to impair the validity of consent.
This leaves a great many trans individuals at risk of prosecution for a criminal offence. It is, however, still unclear as to whether the courts regard this to be the case for a trans person who has undergone medical transition, and it is further greyed by whether or not an individual can be defined as trans, based on their appearance, by the court. Clarity is urgently needed."

This is from Stonewall's Response, setting out their objectives.

SEX BY DECEPTION
Stonewall will support calls for a judicial review to clarify prosecution policy and guidance, and amend it where necessary with due regard to the trans person’s right to privacy.

t.co/tI3gGpbmQb?amp=1

Mixed feelings young "transmen" cutting themselves off from womanhood
Mixed feelings young "transmen" cutting themselves off from womanhood
Original poster
howtocomplain · 25/05/2021 12:07

@yeahbutnaw

Strange that so many here think they have a right to define other people's sexuality.

You're not attracted to trans people. Fine. Nobody cares.

But you don't have a right to define other people's sexuality. It's frankly gross that the current "GC" movement is so focussed on telling Gay Men that they are bisexual if they are attracted to trans men. And telling Lesbians that they're bisexual if they are attracted to trans women.

Not your place. Especially as heterosexuals - who seem to be the loudest voices on this subject.

Hetrosexuals? Excuse me?

I think you need to examine your prejudices. On what basis do you think all the women reading this thread are hetrosexual?

Is it because you think mumsnet =mums=hetrosexual women? You need to have a word with yourself.

Why are you ignoring the poster who's said she's a lesbian, on this very thread? Or the many, many lesbians campaigning on this subject. And the LGB Alliance?

Also, what you're missing is that if the concepts of sex and sexuality are redefined for everyone, it impacts everyone.

OP posts:
Erikrie · 25/05/2021 12:07

Strange that so many here think they have a right to define other people's sexuality.

Dictionary definitions help with that. I have the right to use dictionary definitions to describe the things I see. There is no obligation for me to use made up meanings to please other people.

You're not attracted to trans people. Fine. Nobody cares.

Not relevent.

But you don't have a right to define other people's sexuality.

It's not defining other people's sexuality. People decide for themselves if they are gay or straight. The words from the dictionary then help describe that. So if someone is a lesbian they are same SEX attracted. A gay man is same SEX attracted. A heterosexual man or woman is OPPOSITE sex attracted. A bi sexual person can be same SEX or opposite SEX attracted. It's pretty simple really. Especially with the use of a dictionary.

It's frankly gross that the current "GC" movement is so focussed on telling Gay Men that they are bisexual if they are attracted to trans men.

The dictionary is your friend. Men are biological males. Transmen are biological females. Thus, a transman in a relationship with a biological male = heterosexual relationship. If the transman is attracted also to other biological women, they may consider themselves to be Bi. Same for biological males also attracted to other biological males.

And telling Lesbians that they're bisexual if they are attracted to trans women.

And again. Lesbians are biological women. Transwomen are biological males. A relationship between the two is a heterosexual relationship. However if the lesbian is also attracted to other women she may be bi. Same for the transwoman if they are also attracted to other biological males.

Not your place. Especially as heterosexuals - who seem to be the loudest voices on this subject

Not your place to define the above dictionary definitions to suit your own agenda.

IvyTwines2 · 25/05/2021 11:47

There was an interesting point relating to this made in a great Ovarit thread on the 'Fandom to Trans pipeline': "When I started reading yaoi and fanfic at the age of 13, the uke/seme dynamic was popular, but I've been in a lot of fandoms since and it seems to have fallen out of fashion. I've seen people get bullied on tumblr for girlifying male characters, or fetishizing gay relationships. Which is one of the reasons why I believe a lot of fangirls are suddenly trans now, they want to get away with fetishizing homosexuality without getting called homophobes."

We saw a high-profile version of this recently when a certain bee-obsessed and hitherto apparently heterosexual celeb 'came out' as 'queer' after a backlash for accepting a job presenting a a drag show.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 25/05/2021 11:40

Shedbuilder Grin

I'm sorry! I just can't seem to remember that logic is forbidden.

Iluvfriends · 25/05/2021 11:08

@hoodwatch

if they both identify as male then they are gay. I'm confused as to why that's so difficult to grasp. Also confused as to why you care so much. Trans or non-binary, if someone doesn't identify with "womanhood" it doesn't mean they can't still be a feminist
No they bloody well aren't. Gay is same sex attraction and no matter how much people spin this biological sex cannot be changed and that there is fact. I am lesbian, attracted to females and the female body. A man presenting as a woman would not be attractive to me in any shape or form as i am attracted to the female body, it's same sex attraction not whatever gender someone identifies as.
Sophoclesthefox · 25/05/2021 11:04

I tell you I’m vegan.

You see me enjoying a bacon sandwich.

You point out that this makes me not be a vegan.

If my employment protections are set up to protect vegans, but in fact are used to defend my bacon sandwich eating, do they continue to be of use to vegans who do not eat bacon sandwiches?

If the bacon sandwich eating vegan berates the people who suppose themselves to be vegans and urges them to stop “defining other people’s veganism”, do you think they have a point?

Agreeing that words have meanings isn’t some sort of fundamentalism, and it’s a bit odd to act as if “defining” something is an act of oppression.

takingmytimeonmyride · 25/05/2021 11:03

Appropriation of oppression. They are privileged enough to be able to claim to be the most oppressed.

NiceGerbil · 25/05/2021 10:59

That was a general point about your comment spider not about your specific relative who obviously I don't know.

The idea that none of this affects anyone else is not at all true.

Some people may well not mind. But some will. And the principle remains.

Shedbuilder · 25/05/2021 10:58

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PurgatoryOfPotholes · 25/05/2021 10:49

yeahbutnaw

Strange that so many here think they have a right to define other people's sexuality.

So what is your opinion on biological women, who identify as men, telling gay men they should be attracted to them?

So what is your opinion on biological women, who identify as men, and who tell any straight men who find them attractive that they (the men) must be gay or bisexual?

theThreeofWeevils · 25/05/2021 10:34

But you don't have a right to define other people's sexuality.

I do, however, have a right to use words to mean stuff. A transman (biological female) and a natal man (biological male) cannot be a homosexual couple since they are not same-sex. Posturing, self- obsessed nonsense.

NiceGerbil · 25/05/2021 10:32

@SpiderinaWingMirror

My sisters child is like this. It went Gay female Trans man(including top surgery) Gay man.

Whatever, it's their life.

This is the root of it I think.

It's the end game of individualism.

I want to do this or that and why shouldn't I. It's none of anyone elses business.

The fact that gay men will not like female people in dresses and makeup expecting to be able to go along to all the stuff for gay men, but they will have to treat them no differently to a cross dressing male... Doesn't affect them?

I can't get to grips with that at all.

It's just totally arrogant.

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 25/05/2021 10:32

I find comments from some transmen are aggressive and dismissive towards women in the tradition of some of the worst sexist men. Its as though they feel such contempt for women they will go to extreme lengths to deny they are one.

I find it sad frankly.

NiceGerbil · 25/05/2021 10:24

So you directly refute the post right before yours, and see shed's post about missing lesbian clubs as her defining other people's sexuality.

Even as you are comfortable with her sexuality being redefined and those lesbian spaces being stuffed full of males.

Very progressive well done.

And I mean it's not as if lesbians haven't been harassed pursued etc by blokes for ages so there definitely wouldn't be any straight blokes crashing their clubs and other spaces.

How the hell anyone can think of themselves as morally superior by throwing open the doors to everyone is beyond me but hey. Great job, keep at it!

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