Kathleen Stock OBE: Trans Women Aren't Women : A discussion

I think many women did have a problem with transsexuals using our toilets but didn’t feel safe enough, or were too cowed by female socialisation, to say so. It was also a very rare problem so probably most just shrugged it off as a one-time unpleasant experience. Transsexuals then seem to have taken this as a sign that they ‘passed’ and/or were welcome, rather than as what it is - a display of the power differential between men and women.

'Feeling like a woman' can never make sense. I've been a woman for decades and have no idea. I know how it feels to be me. Thats it. I don't know how other women feel - how could I? - and 'feeling like a woman' implies the existence of a universal 'woman feeling ' which may, or may not, exist..I have zero idea how men feel. Maybe they feel just like me?

I can understand that some people wish they had been born the opposite sex. But this isn't the same as claiming you know how all members of the opposite sex feel. This can only ever be a projection of how you think it may feel to be a member of the opposite sex.

Personally I have never

Well quite embarassing I feel the same. Which is why I said it was not a problem. It is now because 1) TRAs have relentlessly focussed on it and 2) various trans people have posted videos of being in toilets for sexual purposes. So now I also feel differently about it. If it was " I just need to pee" I couldn't care less

I don't think most women care about a trans woman doing that.

Oddly enough, the videos from JY now JS and the ones where lauded transwomen activists are shooting selfies or videos of themselves performing sex acts there without any criticism as to how this might make other users feel unsafe - This along with other actions prompted a reconsideration such that it has hardened and retracted my boundaries.

I think there are different kinds of trans people (for want of a better word). There are those who, like Imasoulman on this thread, who just want to live their lives in peace and at heart (I think) do accept that they are transwomen and not women in the true sense.
But there are others who will stop at nothing less than being accepted as a full woman in every sphere of life no matter whose rights or feelings they have to trample over to get that validation.
There are those who actually question the existence of biological sex and come up with every dubious reason under the sun why sex is a 'spectrum' (even though the VAST majority of the general population do align with their biology and only 0.018% have a DSD) As if being a woman is nothing more than a 'feeling'. It is these arguments that annoy women.
I would argue that in the 'real world' most people do NOT accept that sex change is possible. I'm sorry to disagree with you but my 13 year old daughter knows that biological sex change is a fantasy. It's a dangerous path to go down teaching young people that anything more than outward appearance can be changed and I think you are not giving enough credit to the 'average' person.
Having said all that, I wish more trans people held some of the beliefs that you seem to, because I really think the TRA movement is doing SO much damage to trans people who just want to get on with their lives. I would NEVER presume to know what a trans person goes through in their life but I would never expect a male person to ever know what it is to be female. It is impossible for either of us to know.

Slightly hypocritical of me though as I have used female toilets in the dim and distant past.
Thing is though, I don't think most women care about a trans woman doing that. What we want is to be able to challenge creepy people without being accused of a hate crime.

Toilet use was not a problem, which is precisely why TRAs focus on it, because it makes women with concerns look unreasonable and is the thin end of a wedge to end single sex spaces altogether.

It makes me so cross.

'Honestly the average person on the street, not trans not feminist but people removed from the whole debate which is the vast majority of people would say that someone who is using hormones and had surgery would have changed their sex.
It might not be scientifically correct but it is the common perception'

I suspect, going how public opinion is slowly changing from 'why won't everyone just be kind?' to 'hang on, women are being threatened with being jailed for stating biological facts?' that the situation is the opposite to what you say.

Despite the mantra of TWAW, the general public will have considered this as a social thing and are rather taken aback when they realise that they are expected to believe that humans can actually change sex.

You talk about echo chambers but away from the media and metropolitan cities and settings (Universities and the like), the ordinary person on the street won't believe this. They also generally haven't been following the debate and when it starts impacting on day to day life (as it has started to), then they start to realise the institutional capture and scope of this whole thing.

I agree 100 %

Medical intervention is suitable for a tiny tiny amount of people who identify as trans.
Particularly at the moment with this trend amongst young girls.

Sex based provision again yes I agree definitely needs protecting.
Slightly hypocritical of me though as I have used female toilets in the dim and distant past. But times have changed and sadly due to this self id business these spaces do need protecting

No, I don't think I am. I just don't agree with the premise.

And I agree withProf Stock. I'd like to see trans people owning the "trans" part of their identity, rather than the "gender" part. And recognising and celebrating they are trans men/women, not men/women. Different and valuable for the difference.

In the real world a transwoman who has had surgery and is taking body altering hormones has changed their sex.

No, the reality is that they are a male individual who has had surgery and takes hormones to give the appearance of a female person.
It is not possible to change sex.

Personally I don't think we should be forcing people to have invasive surgery, lifelong medical dependence and all the potential risks of that to "prove" they are trans enough. I think most of the general public are too squeamish to really look into what "gender confirmation surgery" really entails - they just see it as that person must be really trans to go through that.

However, I'd like to see trans people recognise that sex based provision is there for good reason and respect that. Unfortunately very little of that happens.

I would be interested to know how you think it "feels" to be a woman.

I have been asked that many times and have said that I can't answer that. I simply can't convey it in words

I am going to have a stab at this. I may be talking tosh, of course.

When you look at other lives - images, films, written descriptions, imagination, novels - your inner image of yourself places you in the imaginative, social or pictorial category of women. Not all or maybe even most women, but ‘womanhood’ as it appears to be.

Does any of that make sense?

(As a comparison in miniature:
My whole inner being revolts at compressing myself into some traditionally feminine roles or styles. If I look at myself in makeup and a ‘pretty’ outfit, although objectively I can see that it looks acceptable, it’s so very ‘not me’ that I feel utterly compelled to wipe it off and change.)

Humans are their bodies, but also products of their culture, literature, history and surroundings. I don’t blame those who try to blend into the view of ‘woman’ in current culture rather than alter it - as long as the actual needs and wishes of women are protected, and we aren’t forced to repeat lies.

Yes agree but it's percolated down so lots of people who are interested in social justice issues will say that "T**Fs are spouting hate" and that's what drives the media. If women were kinder this would all be OK etc.
Whereas that shows it's mens attitudes that are more of a blocker, yet noone is berating men to Be Kind.

@QuentinBunbury

That's a really interesting report permanent. Not least because it shows men are a lot more rejecting of "trans rights" yet its feminists that are being blamed for this in public discourse.

It's stonewall and TRA's that are causing all this angst and discourse

No, I know how I feel. Just because I can't define it doesn't mean it isn't real

We've had this discussion before. Yes, you know how you feel. Yes, that feeling is real. You are unhappy that you were born male. You don't 'feel like a woman' because 'woman' isn't a feeling and you're not a woman.

That's a really interesting report permanent. Not least because it shows men are a lot more rejecting of "trans rights" yet its feminists that are being blamed for this in public discourse.

Honestly the average person on the street, not trans not feminist but people removed from the whole debate which is the vast majority of people would say that someone who is using hormones and had surgery would have changed their sex.
It might not be scientifically correct but it is the common perception

No, I know how I feel. Just because I can't define it doesn't mean it isn't real

I have been asked that many times and have said that I can't answer that. I simply can't convey it in words

So we agree then? I have no idea what it's like to be trans and you have no idea what it's like to be a woman.

Not me !
I have never claimed anything nor asked for validation or anything else.
I just want to live my life without constantly having to explain and defend myself

Who is this "average person" who believes that human beings can change sex?

Also, I would never be "arrogant" enough to believe I understand how transwomen feel. If only that were reciprocal.