Kathleen Stock OBE: Trans Women Aren't Women : A discussion

You can believe what you like BilindaB but facts are facts and reality is reality, transwomen are not women, they are not a subsection of women, women are adult human females, transwomen are not, transwomen come under the category of adult human males.

I believe transwomen are women. They are not the same as 'biological' women, and they know that. But they are a subsection of 'women' in the same way an adoptive mother is a subset of 'mothers' I am adopted btw. I assume nobody here would say 'that woman is not your mother, she did not give birth to you, she did not go through pregnancy with you, these are the vital things that make a mother' nor would they say that adoptive mothers somehow 'erase' biological mothers.

I believe that transwomen who have fully transitioned are in fact women

And some Christians believe that the blessing of a priest means that the bread and wine are in fact Jesus' body.

Look @Imasoulman nobody is denying that you exist. THAT is the crap we are discussing here, the shit you say you do not do. It is a complete perversion of everything many GC women here, and in real life, think and say. I know that because of the many and varied discussions I have had with very many of them.

Of course transwomen exist. They are people, humans with the same rights as all humans in this country, and additional protections via the EA2010 in respect of "gender reassignment."

But ...

What I object to s the kind of gender extremist ideology which requires that women no longer exist. That women as "adult human females" are erased, and that the fundamental definition of woman = female = large gamete haver (for any mammal) is denied.

THAT is the real denial of an oppressed group's existence.

I could go on. Here's a few example of 'normal' and regular erasure of women & girls:

• The regular denial of women & girl's lived experience of domestic violence
• The regular denial of women & girl's lived experience of sexual violence & harassment
• The regular denial of women & girl's lived experience of street violence & harassment *The regular denial or erasure of women's bodily experiences specifically related to their physiological biological sex: the hiding away & shaming of menstruation & menopause *The regular erasure of women's bodily experiences of pregnancy, particularly in the workplace and in the medical/health care context. eg made redundant or sacked while pregnant (usually because pregnant); maltreatment by health care professionals during pregnancy, labour & post-partum.

Think on that for starters, and reflect on the privilege that men are born into, whether or not they "feel" they are men.

Oh the "denying our existence" stuff is so ridiculous.

If a Christian tries to convert me to Christianity and I tell them I don't believe in their god, I'm not saying they don't exist, am I. They're right there!

Not agreeing that a man magically becomes a woman by saying so, or that there is such a thing as an inner essential "gender identity" is a matter of belief, I don't believe it, you do. You're entitled to your beliefs but you don't get to force them on others. If you do try to force them others and they say no thanks, they are not denying you exist. They are disagreeing with you.

Meanwhile transactivists are literally, actively trying to erase the existence of sex and biological women as legal categories. And crowing about it sating things like "enjoy your erasure". Projection much?

Look @Imasoulman nobody is denying that you exist. THAT is the crap we are discussing here, the shit you say you do not do. It is a complete perversion of everything many GC women here, and in real life, think and say. I know that because of the many and varied discussions I have had with very many of them.

You only have to read many of the threads here to see, usually in response to some Twitter Twat or Monitor coming and trying to stir things up, to see the lie in the statement that GC women deny transwomen the right to exist it's all crap. That you have repeated it here is part of the problem you/we have. You belive that and, even when we say nope! Not what I think, you persist. How are we to have any discussion if you cannot stop calling us liars?

We can discuss the possibility of changing sex forever, that's opinion formed on science vs opinion formed on feelings. We all know that!

But if you can't let go of the lies that Stonewall and TRAs have spread so wide, repeated so often that even you, who says she dislikes the actions of Stonewall etc, have internalised and believe despite no GC woman here (or maybe even no woman in real life) has said to you. How would that go?

Hello
Silence
Hello. Why are you not talking to me?
Silence

WE here in MN ARE talking to you. So you obviously DO EXIST! If you can't let go of that lie, no matter how deeply you have internalised it, how can we talk? What will any talk produce?

See above for the kind of angry, circular rubbish that kind of talk would produce!

Wait- yikes!

Not gonna ask!

My scottish friend has brilliant turns of phrase. I thought I was pretty good but wow. I dunno if it's normal for his locality or he just has the same appreciation of a well turned phrase as me ( but he wins)

John Lewis though. I mean FFS. That's basic stuff surely!

Thank you OP, I found the video very informative. I am off to buy Kathleen's book now. I was starting to get my head around some of the issues (my DD is kind of caught up in the whole lesbian/trans/non binary confusion- interestingly she 'came out' as 'gay' first of all- sad that she didn't even consider the word lesbian), so I need to know about this stuff now. My view is she's a young girl going through puberty and that's confusing enough, without having to worry about if she's in the wrong bloody body! I didn't even twig that one of the motivators for stonewall was financial. That makes me really angry. I was very pleased to see 2 homosexual people discussing this, and to begin to get my head around how it negatively affects their hard one rights and misconceptions. Very illuminating. Thank you.

@nicegerbil slightly off topic but you've reminded me off the news article today about John Lewis introducing a Jellycat toy dragon which is called 'Fud' (which Jellycat have advised is a shortened name - I think the full name is Fudflutter or something). Clearly they don't have anyone Scottish on their marketing team as fud means something very different up here!

I love this place. Vogon poetry and blenders. Seriously, I'm watching a scary thriller and laughing my head off at this thread.

The blender will haunt me until next week at least.

And, Campervan69 I guess I'm a Year older, but same childhood. Just the same.

@KarenOkefe

Havent watched the video however to me, trans women are women, the worst of men pretending to be trans women to get into womens spaces is a MEN problem not a trans problem, aswell as this I would feel much more comfortable with a fully transitioned trans women using a womans restroom than a fully transitioned trans man using the restroom of his sex, we need to help trans people belong as they gi through much more than the average woman

We don't have restrooms.
We have toilets, bogs, lavs. Around here. People will say going for a slash, going to the shitter. Etc etc

My Scottish friend says cludgie.

Dunno about Welsh/ NI. Or other local phrases.

Also obv going to the ladies/ gents.

My nan said spend a penny! I remember why as well :)

Anyway. Restroom.

If you are in USA or have strong enough ties there to use the language.

I've heard that the bogs there often have big gaps. Like you can see round the edges. So eyes are averted when walking down.

My mate in USA said this and I've heard it elsewhere.

Is that true? I can only assume it is.

And hence why given we are all expected for some reason to argue about USA focussed stuff. The apparent fact there are weird fucking really gappy bogs over there (everywhere? No idea) makes it very obvious why bogs are a massive deal over there.

Flounce to me is not neutral.

It doesn't just mean leave, in reality.

It invokes leave in an overblown, dramatic strop and make sure everyone notices.

I don't see it as particularly equated with women though. But about a certain sense of. How dare you. Ego.

It's an exaggerated feminine thing. From films. USA ones. Big dresses. Beautiful spoilt women.

It's about being childish.

Yes we use it on here so maybe fair point.

However it's behaviour much beloved of the sort of female stars that drag queens emulate. If you want to see a proper full hair swing argue flounce that's the realm of drag really.

So yet again we come back to.

Men creating behaviour for women in the media for men and women to laugh at, which then becomes a thing associated with women even though it's really not something women do any more then men and certainly not like? a Hollywood golden age star. That male created behaviour is then associated with femininity, and adopted by men in certain groups.

It's not actually anything to do with women.

I expect some women flounce well but you know what, they've learnt it as well.

It's all fake. Manufactured. Male gaze. It's so dull.

And as it's all male gaze and a mysoginist society where women are 2d stereotypes. Yep. That's all it is.

It's just a total depressing confirmation of what I always thought. But hoped wasnt true.

MEN who identify a women go through much more than the average women? In what sense? And help them belong to what?

we need to help trans people belong as they gi through much more than the average woman smile

I don't even know where to start with that. It either shows an incredibly privileged experience or a complete lack of empathy and understanding of any of the issues women face (including but not limited to - violence against women meaning that 3 women are murdered a week in the UK, the low rate of rape convictions meaning it is virtually legal and is compounded by the horrific societal views of 'she was drunk', 'she was asking for it' ect, forced marriage, FGM).

Go through much more what? Shaving foam?

Last time i copy what bernard says 😀

Though I can't see anyway that females can make compromises in all this and at the same time achieve what they need to

At least this is something we can agree on.

@BilindaB the YouGov survey you linked was commissioned by Pink News. Wings Over Scotland commissioned a similar poll but with different wording and had very different results. It all depends on how the questions are put and what the biases of the commissioning organisation are.
wingsoverscotland.com/transforming-the-question/

I am slurring to be fair

I have my retainer in 😀

Ive just had a pop at dh for something and its not having its usual effect...there may be giggling

Havent watched the video however to me, trans women are women, the worst of men pretending to be trans women to get into womens spaces is a MEN problem not a trans problem, aswell as this I would feel much more comfortable with a fully transitioned trans women using a womans restroom than a fully transitioned trans man using the restroom of his sex, we need to help trans people belong as they gi through much more than the average woman