Kathleen Stock OBE: Trans Women Aren't Women : A discussion

Had we never been presented with attempts at changing laws, social mores, been arrested, taken to court, lost jobs - Stonewall REALLY isn't an outlier - we (women that is) would never have noticed there was anything amiss! But we were/are. So we protest!

Ok so if MTF people know they are not female, they can stay out of female single sex spaces. That's great, wasn't as hard as I thought!

Can you give me some examples of Trans People who claim there is absolutely no difference at all between a trans-person and a person of the gender they have transitioned /are transitioning to? You haven't been here long have you?

There are countless threads with just such examples, from Twitterverse, here, facebook, Stonewall, Mermaids, government ministers, all sorts of people, organisations etc.

If noboy were syaing it, nobody was trying to change the law to erase sex as a prtected characteristic, single sex spaces in general, we wouldn't still be here shouting about it.

And god only knows we would REALLY prefer never to have had to start talking about it in the first place.

If you are going to be all arrivist and try and tell us the sky is not blue expect some push back! Such disingenuous tripe doesn't fly well here!

Ah. The No True Scotsman logical fallacy.

Logic fail.

...Emmy Zje...

Natalie Wynn? Abigail Thorne? No, I am very familiar with both, neither believes trans women are exactly the same as biological women. You are either mistaken or lying, I wonder which. Which makes me doubt some of the other names you list.

That's quite a few 'outliers' and that's only including people who happen to be in the public eye!

"You forgot to name any trans people who think transitioning makes them indistinguishable, 100% the same, biologically and genetically."

They don't even think that they need to transition to become indistinguishable from females - they think that they are already 'female' (or alternatively, that there is no such thing as the concept 'female' and so the only thing that ties trans women and women together are shared mental states, which amounts to the same thing). I've already mentioned loads of trans women I've talked to who believe they are biologically female but happen to have a penis (which they say is a female penis.) Naming names, off the top of my head, the trans activists who say trans women are identical to biological women are: Munro Bergdof, Shon Faye, India Willoughby, Zinnia Jones, Julia Serrano, Juno Dawson, Chase Strangio, Judith Butler, Abigail Thorne, Natalie Wynn, Tallia Bettcher, Meredith Talusan, Katelyn Burns, Veronica Ivy. ..

Where are these trans people who think like that?

India Willoughby is a good start.

Lily Madigan, who thinks that they will be able to become pregnant at some point.

Munroe Bergdorf.

The list goes on ...

You said ' Also, taking your analogy at face value, trans rights activists are the equivalent of an adoptive mother who insists that she is exactly the same as birthing mothers in all regards, that she did get pregnant and give birth (and we all have to go along with that fiction, or else we are bigots), that there is literally NO difference whatsoever between birthing mothers and adoptive mothers,'

Where are these trans people who think like that? Name a few. Nevermind that you suggested ALL trans activists think like this, which they certainly do not.

I don't think Chase Strangio of the American Civil Liberties Union is an outlier at all. He is one of many who argues that biological sex is a redundant Western construct and they are fighting to eradicate all women's sex based rights.
A lot of people like him are desperately trying to silence detransitioners voices too. See the recent CBS 60 minutes documentary.

''@BilindaB: there are so many examples it is hard to know where to begin! Despite the Equality Act explicitly saying that trans women may be excluded from female only spaces, there has been a campaign from Stonewall and other trans rights activists to get trans women into female only spaces. A trans woman recently became the head of Rape Crisis Scotland when the position was advertised as female only. Trans women who have not undergone any surgery or hormonal treatment are being sent to female only prisons, and have sexually assaulted women there. Trans women insist on being allowed to compete in female sports (see Fallon Fox, Laurel Hubbard, Veronica Ivy). When women insist on female only spaces they are called bigots, even though we have rights to them.

Also, the world of lesbian dating is absolutely dire at the moment (and I can personally attest to this. ) Lesbians are expected to be open to dating trans women with penises because penises are a female organ if they are attached to females. One of the leading lesbian websites recently published a very long piece by a trans author which was entirely about their penis - (it was called "this is an essay about penises.") Lesbian sex guides online now include guides on how to have sex with penises. There is absolutely NO acknowledgement that lesbians may only be interested in biological women. In fact, I'm now alienated from the LGBT community because to admit that is now considered to be bigotry. The message at the moment is - trans women are women, lesbians are attracted to women, so you have to include trans women in your dating pool. Oh, and penises are female.''

You forgot to name any trans people who think transitioning makes them indistinguishable, 100% the same, biologically and genetically, as you claimed many do. I'm interested, as I would not agree with them.

Perhaps there are a few outliers who say stuff like this, but I've never come across it.

Stonewall? An outlier?

@BilindaB: there are so many examples it is hard to know where to begin! Despite the Equality Act explicitly saying that trans women may be excluded from female only spaces, there has been a campaign from Stonewall and other trans rights activists to get trans women into female only spaces. A trans woman recently became the head of Rape Crisis Scotland when the position was advertised as female only. Trans women who have not undergone any surgery or hormonal treatment are being sent to female only prisons, and have sexually assaulted women there. Trans women insist on being allowed to compete in female sports (see Fallon Fox, Laurel Hubbard, Veronica Ivy). When women insist on female only spaces they are called bigots, even though we have rights to them.

Also, the world of lesbian dating is absolutely dire at the moment (and I can personally attest to this. ) Lesbians are expected to be open to dating trans women with penises because penises are a female organ if they are attached to females. One of the leading lesbian websites recently published a very long piece by a trans author which was entirely about their penis - (it was called "this is an essay about penises.") Lesbian sex guides online now include guides on how to have sex with penises. There is absolutely NO acknowledgement that lesbians may only be interested in biological women. In fact, I'm now alienated from the LGBT community because to admit that is now considered to be bigotry. The message at the moment is - trans women are women, lesbians are attracted to women, so you have to include trans women in your dating pool. Oh, and penises are female.

'The problem isn't so much that we are expected to accept that trans woman are woman. The problem is that we must accept they are women in EXACTLY the same way as female women are women.'

All the transwomen (and transmen) I know, or follow on YouTube, do not claim they are exactly the same as a biological woman. Perhaps there are a few outliers who say stuff like this, but I've never come across it. Trans Women know they are not the exact same as a biological woman. Can you give me some examples of Trans People who claim there is absolutely no difference at all between a trans-person and a person of the gender they have transitioned /are transitioning to?

I still dont get why there cant be Trans Pride - what the hell is wrong with Trans that it cant be described as such? Transwomen and Transmen exist - of course they do, but there is no way TWs should inveigle their way into natal womens spaces. And the reasons for this are described over and over with back up statistics by many well informed posters on here.

" they are a subsection of 'women' in the same way an adoptive mother is a subset of 'mothers' I am adopted btw. I assume nobody here would say 'that woman is not your mother, she did not give birth to you, she did not go through pregnancy with you, these are the vital things that make a mother' nor would they say that adoptive mothers somehow 'erase' biological mothers."

This is a super weak analogy. The reason adoptive mothers are 'mothers' is because being a mother is a role and a relationship. It is possible to take up the role of being a mother to someone else by parenting them. Being a woman isn't a role - it isn't a function that anyone can fulfil.

Also, taking your analogy at face value, trans rights activists are the equivalent of an adoptive mother who insists that she is exactly the same as birthing mothers in all regards, that she did get pregnant and give birth (and we all have to go along with that fiction, or else we are bigots), that there is literally NO difference whatsoever between birthing mothers and adoptive mothers, that birthing mothers are insensitive bigots for talking about pregnancy and giving birth so the language should be entirely changed so birthing mothers now have to talk about 'picking their baby up from the orphanage' instead of giving birth, etc.

The problem isn't so much that we are expected to accept that trans woman are woman. The problem is that we must accept they are women in EXACTLY the same way as female women are women. There is NO appreciable difference between the two. Poor Chinmamanda Adichie got into deep trouble for saying 'women are women, and trans women are trans women. 'They don't want to be regarded or treated as a sub-category of woman - they want to be treated as the paradigm category of women. We are expected to go along with the fantasy that they are exactly the same as us in every possible regard, or else we are hideous bigots - sexually they are the same, bodily they are the same (so they get access to female sports), psychologically they are the same. So yes, they are erasing the differences because they insist they are exactly the same as female women!

Your adoptive mother analogy is a false one. To be a mother of any kind you have to be female and male people are not and never can be female.

Mother also means female who has given birth. The word therefore describes both a biological status and a social function.

Man and women are not similarly descriptions of social functions. Well, not unless you're living in antedeluvian times and believe that there are social things men are not allowed to do on the basis of their sex and that women aren't allowed to do on the basis of their sex.

Anyway, here's how the categorisation works if you don't believe in TWAW:

Not all females are mothers, but all mothers are female. Not all mothers give birth to their children. Most do, but some adopt a child who has a different birth mother.

Also, not all adoptive mothers are unable to have children. Many are indeed unable, but some do have children of their own. Often that happens after adoption, when the pressure is off.

And a woman can simultaneously be a mother to children she has given birth to and to children she has adopted.

A human being cannot simultaneously be a man and a woman.

Analogy fail.

No, BilindaB transwomen are not biologically women, women are defined as adult human females.

Adoptive mothers come under the title of mothers the same as step mothers do as they are female, only females can have the title of mother as the law made quite clear in the case of Freddie McConnell who tried to change the law regarding what a mother is and in the same way that Caitlyn Jenner's children still refer to Caitlyn as their father. Humans cannot change sex, correct sex determinants are crucial in law and in life.

Transwomen are transwomen free to live their lives as such and should rightly be able to so with dignity and without discrimination, but they are not women.

Also, if an adoptive mother claims to have given birth to her child, we would question her mental health.

'You can believe what you like BilindaB but facts are facts and reality is reality, transwomen are not women, they are not a subsection of women, women are adult human females, transwomen are not, transwomen come under the category of adult human males.'

compare

'You can believe what you like BilindaB but facts are facts and reality is reality, adoptive mothers are not mothers, they are not a subsection of mothers, mothers are adult human females who have given birth after carrying their own child inside them for nine months, adoptive mothers are not, adoptive mothers come under the category of adult human females unable to have children. They may adopt, but they will never be truly mothers.'

No, I wouldn't say that an adoptive mother is not a mother. But it's not a similar analogy to transwomen's relationship to women. Going along the same lines of the analogy you suggested would be a supportive neighbour who has provided a child with something similar to parental support - they still aren't that child's parent.

And there seems to be a fair amount of trans activists who insist that someone can literally change sex. I've seen some people go further and insist that transwomen were born as women which then poses the question as to what they are transitioning from.