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Kathleen Stock OBE: Trans Women Aren't Women : A discussion

388 replies

Childrenofthestones · 23/05/2021 13:57

It's a view held by most people, so why has it become so controversial to state that trans women aren't women? On this episode of "So What You're Saying Is..." (#SWYI) we are joined by Prof. Kathleen Stock OBE, professor of philosophy at the University of Sussex and author of the best-selling book: "Material Girls: Why Reality Matters for Feminism".

Prof. Stock discusses the issues of sex vs. gender and gender identity, and explains how trans activists, arguing that gender is psychological not physical, now claim that womanhood & manhood are genders in a social, rather than biological, sense.

She discusses the possible motives for Stonewall's decision to become so actively involved in trans rights, as well as the vilification of its outspoken critics such as Germaine Greer and Julie Bindell. Prof. Stock has herself been the target of campaigns to silence, cancel and no platform.

Prof. Stock also discusses the negative impact the more extreme trans rights positions are having on women (changing rooms, public toilets, prisons etc.) as well as the young, and gays & lesbians.

OP posts:
StillWeRise · 23/05/2021 22:57

speaking of the 1970s this thread has a surprising number of women who remember not being allowed to take various subjects at school (technical drawing, woodwork etc) because they were girls.
But you tell the young people of today that, and they don't believe you.

ChocAuVin · 23/05/2021 22:57

Brava, Kathleen Stock. I need to buy that book.

vesuvia · 23/05/2021 22:51

OP, thanks for alerting us to this video featuring Kathleen Stock. She presented a clear summary of many of the key problems that the worship of gender identity has caused for women and girls.

Imasoulman · 23/05/2021 22:46

@Helmetbymidnight

You really think people were not transitioning in the seventies?

what pp said- but also those who did transition (and i know a couple in the 70s-80s after much counselling) did not insist they became the other sex. they defined themselves as transexuals not as women. do you understand the difference soulman?

I understand transgender women very well.
Wether I agree that transwomen are not women is another matter.

TiltTopTable · 23/05/2021 22:46

Of course they're not women. They have no idea what it's like to be a woman, to face the issues we face, to live with the physiology we live with - how could they?

CharlieParley · 23/05/2021 22:42

@alankermode

hey there's loads of proof also y'all have changed your views since 77 or your hair cuts you lots are weirdly obsessed with something that will do no harm also your name sounds like a blender
I'm three-and-a-half margaritas in (loads of sugar syrup coz I am not sophisticated enough for the real thing) and that still makes no sense.

My blender, which I nicked from my son, is totally great though. It is called Cucinella Piccola. Unfortunately he wants it back.

In 1977 I thought if I burnt a piece of paper and quickly threw it behind the cupboard when my mum walked in I wouldn't get in trouble.

I was wrong.

I also thought that wolves were the scariest, courtesy of little red riding hood.

I was wrong.
People are much scarier.

ErrolTheDragon · 23/05/2021 22:41

@KathleenMagimix

Confused In 1977 I had a centre parting, now I have a side parting.
Me too. It's still much the same colour and (thanks to lockdowns) much the same length. Fewer split ends; I suppose conditioners have improved since then.
NiceGerbil · 23/05/2021 22:35

I wouldn't say I'm obsessed with it more extremely worried and dismayed by the speed of change, without women in general being asked (and many are still unaware), including in law.

Who the fuck 10 years ago would have though it would be the right thing to talk about vagina havers, and that rapists would be in women's prisons?!

Signed, Ken Wood Grin

vesuvia · 23/05/2021 22:27

alankermode wrote - "you lots are weirdly obsessed with something that will do no harm".

You seem to be implying that we are obsessed with being transphobic. This is not true.

Most people on the MN FWR forum are instead "obsessed" with the truth/reality that humans cannot change sex. Awareness of how biology actually works is indeed usually less harmful than denial.

Meanwhile, the biology-deniers, who tell transgender people that it is possible to change sex, are lying. These lies are doing harm.

NiceGerbil · 23/05/2021 21:04

Ninja, magimix, Kenwood...?

Ninja is a great name. Maybe it was a compliment?

Delphinium20 · 23/05/2021 21:01

@alankermode

hey there's loads of proof also y'all have changed your views since 77 or your hair cuts you lots are weirdly obsessed with something that will do no harm also your name sounds like a blender
Welcome to the 12-year old in the house! I always enjoy when the youngsters come along for the ride, but first, some ground rules:
  1. No name calling.
  2. Use clear language (e.g. what is there proof of?)
  3. Provide sources (if there is proof of something, please share).
  4. Eat your veggies
  5. Listen to your mother
AlfonsoTheTerrible · 23/05/2021 20:43

@Cleanandpress

In case anyone thinks I'm all about the smoothie...

Originating as an Olympic lift, the clean and press works no fewer than eight different muscle groups. The lower half of the movement strengthens your hips, glutes, and hamstrings, while the upper half of the movement targets your shoulders, chest, back, and arms.

In just seven days, i can make you a ma-a-a-a-n.
NiceGerbil · 23/05/2021 20:09

Punk and goth. New wave? That sort of stuff.

The views I had in 77 were that I needed to have a Tonka bin truck my brother had 2 but he was nice and let me play with them.

Can't remember much else tbh.

I think that's ageism isn't it? Old women are just the WORST. Especially if it's your mum wtf is she always going on about putting dirty clothes in the laundry thing and not all over the floor so booorrrrring.

roaringmouse · 23/05/2021 20:02

Wow, Kathleen Stock is impressive!

KathleenMagimix · 23/05/2021 19:55

Confused In 1977 I had a centre parting, now I have a side parting.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 23/05/2021 19:42

You really think people were not transitioning in the seventies?

Cant see where she said that

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 23/05/2021 19:37

@allmywhat

I interpreted the rest of it, I think: the grammar fails; the missing negative; the deep confusion about what views and haircuts looked like in 1977; and the warped TRA definition of harm (if a woman gets raped, it's a statistic, if a man gets his feelings hurt, it's a tragedy.) But I fell at the last hurdle on the blender thing.
Very good effort though allmyehat

Well done you!

heathspeedwell · 23/05/2021 19:23

On the subject of Vogon poetry, does anyone know how the wonderful Bowlofbabelfish is doing? I used to love reading her posts years ago.

heathspeedwell · 23/05/2021 19:21

Thy micturitions are to me,
As plurdled gabbleblotchits,
On a lurgid bee,

FlibbertyGiblets · 23/05/2021 19:15

@ErrolTheDragon

(Is it regarded as a sentence if there’s no punctuation whatsoever?)

It's poetry.Grin

Vogon no less.

Off to read rest of the thread.

KittyValentine · 23/05/2021 19:14

Poetry

Snort Grin

Soontobe60 · 23/05/2021 19:10

@alankermode

hey there's loads of proof also y'all have changed your views since 77 or your hair cuts you lots are weirdly obsessed with something that will do no harm also your name sounds like a blender
You’ve won me over!
Cleanandpress · 23/05/2021 19:06

Almost Joycean. Could have been Buck Mulligan shouting up the stairs.

Campervan69 · 23/05/2021 19:00

Stream of consciousness.

Cleanandpress · 23/05/2021 19:00

77 was a great year for women in music.

www.cherryred.co.uk/product/make-more-noise-women-in-independent-music-uk-1977-1987-various-artists-4cd-bookpack/

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