Kathleen Stock OBE: Trans Women Aren't Women : A discussion

This is half the problem, labels, definitions, etc they always deflect from any meaningful discussion.

Seriously? In order to have a meaningful discussion, the definitions of the words being used must be agreed on. Or by 'meaningful' do you mean 'meaningless'?

In the real world a transwoman who has had surgery and is taking body altering hormones has changed their sex.

In the real world, a male person who has taken opposite sex hormones and had surgery is a male who has made cosmetic changes to his body. His chromosomes remain the same.

You don't have to accept that but in reality most people wether they approve or not accept that is what is meant by changing sex.

'Most people'? Do you have a source for that?

Transwomen - Females assigned as Male at birth

Try removing the penis and testicles of an adult male horse and then seeing if it can gestate a foal

I do not think ‘female’ means what you think it means

And don’t do ‘but infertile women’ please, it’s boring

The existence of one legged people doesn’t mean humans aren’t bipedal

Transwomen - Females assigned as Male at birth. And that's the problem isn't it? Using words you can't/won't define to define other words!

This is half the problem, labels, definitions, etc they always deflect from any meaningful discussion

Being asked to explain what you mean is so bloody tiresome innit?

Transwomen - Females assigned as Male at birth.

Fully Transitioned - After surgery

Are - second person singular present and first, second, third person plural present of be.

Infact - in reality or actuality

Women - Adult human females

Oh those pesky definitions! They really get in the way of making arguments, don't they? But the problem is, unless you can explain what you mean by your words, it's pretty hard to make a case for their being right. For example, when you say "transwoman", it may be that you mean any man who says he's a woman; any man with medically diagnosed dysphoria; any man who doesn't like/identify with masculine stereotypes... fur example. Those things are different from one another, and if you are putting forward an argument it matters which one you mean. Etc etc with all the terms you used - hence your being asked. It's not pedantry, it's rigour.

Plus your argument is circular. Anyone who has had plastic surgery and cross-sex hormones has changed sex, if you define changing sex as having plastic surgery and cross-sex hormones. Do you believe that is really changing sex, or is that only "what is meant" when you say it?

This is half the problem, labels, definitions, etc they always deflect from any meaningful discussion. What are you talking about? Labels, definitions?!?! A simple question and I gave you my belief, my understadning. Why can you not reciprocate?

In the real world a transwoman who has had surgery and is taking body altering hormones has changed their sex. Again HOW? What is it that has changed that you equate to their sex?

You don't have to accept that but in reality most people wether they approve or not accept that is what is meant by changing sex. Sex change is not a legal term, it's a vox pop description that is lacking in accuracy, as you well know.

Look - I can and have answered my own questions, your questions/suggestions and that of many others here.

You have simply sidestepped them. Why is that?

Do you not want to say out loud:

• sex change is a misnomer. I do indeed mean a change in gender identity, how a person 'presents' themselves to the world
• All I want is that transpeople are recognised as trans people, to be safe and accepted as trans people, to be valued as trans people

Very good. I'll offer a surplus? As in surplus to requirements.

This is half the problem, labels, definitions, etc they always deflect from any meaningful discussion.

In the real world a transwoman who has had surgery and is taking body altering hormones has changed their sex.

You don't have to accept that but in reality most people wether they approve or not accept that is what is meant by changing sex.

It was such a profound and compelling argument and the name sounds like a bender was the absolute coup de grace. Amazing, just truly amazing.

I dunno what the collective term for people who go through the menopause is though - anyone got any ideas?

Invisible?

I agree with just

I don’t think errol was making light at all

As a lapsed catholic I think I can say that @ErrolTheDragon wasn't making light of anything . Simply stating a fact. A biochemical analysis of the host pre and post transubstantiation would yield no biochemical differences. Same a as analysis of DNA pre and post transition

People can believe anything they like - but it don't make it so. And they certainly cant compel others to believe things that can be proven otherwise.

I decided a few minutes before my school photo in 1977 (I was 8 at the time) that I really wanted to make my hair like Farah Fawcett Majors. So I took my brush and flicked my fringe (without a mirror) so (in my imagination) it looked just like hers. When the photos were developed and given to us to take home, it turned out that I had somehow managed to push and flatten down my fringe to either side of my forehead leaving a giant spamhead in its place. Not a Farah flick in sight. My mum still has the photo somewhere.

I believe that transwomen who have fully transitioned are in fact women.

What do you mean by:

1. "transwomen"
2. "fully transitioned"
3. "are"
4. "in fact"
5. "women"

Thank you in advance, *Imasoulman"

In what objective sense are these male people women?

people who wear skirts are women innit Errol, like on the toilet doors

case closed

I dunno what the collective term for people who go through the menopause is though - anyone got any ideas?

I believe that transwomen who have fully transitioned are in fact women.

In what objective sense are these male people women?

Or is this a belief similar to Roman Catholics believing that bread and wine can be transubstantiated into the actual body and blood of Jesus even though a chemical analysis would still show carbohydrates and aqueous ethanol?

No one says you can't call yourself a blender. We're just saying, if you started out as a teapot, you can't really become a blender.

Please show me a human being who has changed sex, @Imasoulman, so that I can nominate them for a Nobel Prize in biology.

I’d add that sex is written into every cell in our body.

I believe that transwomen who have fully transitioned are in fact women.

So you believe that people can change sex? You are entitled to hold this belief, which is scientifically inaccurate, just as you would be entitled to believe in a flat earth.

I believe that transwomen who have fully transitioned are in fact women. Indulge me. Tell me how! Or what that actually means to you.

I'll start.

• Human beings cannot change sex
• Anyone who 'transitions' does so socially and may have a wide range of body modifications, but they then only more closely resemble the sex they wish to 'transition' to
• A GRC gives a transitioned person the legal fiction of having changed sex, with certain caveats - ie they are not actually that sex. but should be treated so in most, but not all , situation.s. That's why it is a Gender recognition Certificate,
• Sex is immutable, based in biology - please don't spout seahorses or 'intersex'
• Gender is the sociological stereotypes, expectations, shorthand, box, imposed upon people within a given society. It changes over time and across societies. One most right minded individuals reject any gender restrictions!
• No amount of dysphoria can make a human being change sex. Society allows that a dysphoric individual can apply for a GRC, can live presenting themselves as whatever it is they think is appropriate for them, the sex they wish to be/be seen as. Most people in society choose to accommodate this. Some don't.

[quote Eminybob]@Imasoulman if you have come on this thread to present a different side to the debate, please feel free.
“You’re wrong I’m right because I said so” doesn’t do your cause any favours.[/quote]
Well I don't think I have a cause, just a belief.

I believe that transwomen who have fully transitioned are in fact women.