Kathleen Stock OBE: Trans Women Aren't Women : A discussion

A girl in the year or two above was bullied off her course by the teacher.

(1980's)

I guess I could

But then you’d all still be in suspense.

I have a photo of me in 77, dressed in brown corduroy and beige acrylic, as everyone was for most of the decade. It’s possible that the change of views is over the acceptability of brown bri-nylon as suitable childrenswear, and I’m on board if that’s what it is.

No! You're a blender and so's your Mum.

Ah 1977! That was the year I became an IT techie in spite of my father refusing to buy me a Meccano set because 'girls don't do engineering.' He bought me a floral flowers set instead. Much more appropriate.

BTW, my blender is a Ninja too.

'75 was the long hot one, wasn't it? I rememerb going to Kirkudbright on holiday and getting one hell of a sunburn!

Original star wars movie was released

Dunno, I’ll google it

This is half the problem, labels, definitions, etc they always deflect from any meaningful discussion.In the real world a transwoman who has had surgery and is taking body altering hormones has changed their sex.You don't have to accept that but in reality most people wether they approve or not accept that is what is meant by changing sex.

So transwomen who have done none of the above and have no intention of having genital surgery, what "sex" are they?

Was 77 the really hot summer? Did something melt and that changed our views?

I’m just here to see if we ever get to the bottom of this blender issue. What on earth did the poster mean?

I know it’s unspeakably boomerish and Pooterish of me, but I do so cling to all these silly definitions of things to help me make sense of this pitiless universe

I don’t think Errol made light of religion at all either. Catholics believe in transubstantiation. I have read an essay trying to justify why gluten free bread should be offered in Catholic communion (something about the residual after transubstantiation).

Some may believe that, despite the absence of female internal organs such as ovaries, womb, cervix, despite the XY chromosomes in every single cell and despite the completely different hormone levels, transwomen for some reason are women.

I don’t understand this belief. I do know it has something to do with surgery on external parts of the body and an unquantifiable “feeling”. I completely respect that people believe this. I respect that people believe in transubstantiation as well.

But I don’t believe in either. And the catholics don’t try to force me to believe in transubstantiation. But transwomen seem to want me to believe what they do. And I don’t think that is right. I think that we should respect each other’s beliefs.

Aargh, this is the point at which my brain always explodes. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Meanwhile, what's the difference between a teapot and a blender? One brews your drink and the other one makes you think. Any better?

That's just going to keep on giving isn't it?

We have a new term, it has no actual meaning, we didn't coin it but we have adopted it and we will use it, whenever and however we want to

Oh dear, another blenderbender making a fuss about nothing!

No one says you can't call yourself a blender. We're just saying, if you started out as a teapot, you can't really become a blender.

Yes I’ve only recently realised how many people think “transwoman” = female trans person = trans man. Probably not helped much by wokesters asserting “TRANS WOMEN ARE WOMEN” all the time. A great many people don’t think TW are really women (much like most transsexuals themselves never used to think that) so maybe this leads them to think that TWAW must mean trans men are women.

The thing is soul man if you say that a transwoman is an actual female woman, that does need a definition especially if it is going to affect things like laws and where people go to prison and so on. You may not like definitions much but I imagine you’d suddenly find they have their uses if you were wrongly accused of a crime and had to be defended in court. If people could just make up what “fraud” or “burglary” meant in order to convict you, you’d probably be quite alarmed.

So therefore we need to know what is meant by female if we are to agree a TW is female. Up until recently female meant one of the two types of reproductive sex classes in sexually reproductive species. And still does in actual discussions that are about these issues and not about trans ideology.

If you are genetically male, no matter what you do, you cannot become genetically female and you cannot become of the female sex class in terms of reproduction. So in what sense is a TW female? What is your definition of female? If it’s just clothes, feelings, make-up, shoes etc etc etc then why can’t these things mean a person can change race, age, height etc? If it’s not just these things then what is it?

Yes HeadIsFucked - good point!

I've seen this especially in GenX and Boomer age groups - kindly people not invested nor involved in this discussion, who think a woman or girl who doesn't fit the "look" of a stereotypical female is a transwoman. OR think a lesbian who tries to look manly is a transwoman. So why shouldn't a grown tomboy use the women's changing room?

Staniland Question can resolve this, but it's a jarring idea to interject into a convo when everyone has such a different understanding. Nobody wants to clarify because asking intimate questions about sexuality, clothing and feelings is impolite. Even older people feel asking any intimate questions about women is very invasive.

Yeah @HeadIsFucked But we are not allowed to use a different term that would make the sex of the transindividual obvious. It is, apparently, insulting. Much as many of the terms we read here about women are... difference is we, MN posters, get deleted and banned for using those terms and the posters who drop in to chastise us just carry on regardless - some even get an apology and second chance from MNHQ!

Transwomen - Females assigned as Male at birth.

1. What is a "female"?
2. Why were they "assigned male at birth"?

Fully Transitioned - After surgery

3. What surgery, specifically?

To add another layer to how magled language is becoming, many many people I talk about this issue on think transwoman means...female person who is trans. Actual female person. Who has whatever trans identity. So a transman..

I have found the above to be one of the biggest hurdles to getting people to see the issues actually. As of course, saying female people who have a trans identity should not access areas reserved for female people, sounds awful to many. Once its cleared up, that its about restricting male peoples acess to female areas, people 'get it' quite easily. Generally speaking.

You don't have to accept that but in reality most people wether they approve or not accept that is what is meant by changing sex

Religious belief is similar. Not everyone accepts nor approves a person's belief system, but most accept that the believers have a faith in the unproven creed (aren't all religious beliefs unprovable-that's why faith is needed). We can respect the believers and not discriminate against them, make reasonable accommodations for them like allowing their own places of worship, but we don't have to allow any religion creed to dictate how the public at large lives and thinks, and we don't allow one religion to erode or risk the rights of any class of people.

Transwomen - Females assigned as Male at birth.

Women - Adult human females

What do you mean by 'female' here?

I know the answer - for anyone lurking, trying to get their heads round the subject. But really, I wonder why we bother sometimes.

Those with little logic have the same infinite patience for posting 'it' as we have for debunking 'it'!