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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kathleen Stock OBE: Trans Women Aren't Women : A discussion

388 replies

Childrenofthestones · 23/05/2021 13:57

It's a view held by most people, so why has it become so controversial to state that trans women aren't women? On this episode of "So What You're Saying Is..." (#SWYI) we are joined by Prof. Kathleen Stock OBE, professor of philosophy at the University of Sussex and author of the best-selling book: "Material Girls: Why Reality Matters for Feminism".

Prof. Stock discusses the issues of sex vs. gender and gender identity, and explains how trans activists, arguing that gender is psychological not physical, now claim that womanhood & manhood are genders in a social, rather than biological, sense.

She discusses the possible motives for Stonewall's decision to become so actively involved in trans rights, as well as the vilification of its outspoken critics such as Germaine Greer and Julie Bindell. Prof. Stock has herself been the target of campaigns to silence, cancel and no platform.

Prof. Stock also discusses the negative impact the more extreme trans rights positions are having on women (changing rooms, public toilets, prisons etc.) as well as the young, and gays & lesbians.

OP posts:
BilboBercow · 24/05/2021 19:48

John Wayne Bobbit had it reattached I believe. Now HE'S a real piece of shit.

PermanentTemporary · 24/05/2021 19:45

There's no doubt that a substantial chunk of the population still consider 'sex change surgery' to exist and believe that a male who has had their penis inverted and who presents as a woman is as close to a woman as makes no difference. It would be silly to deny that tbh, and although I don't agree with that view in factual terms, it does at least mark a boundary.

ThatLibraryMiss · 24/05/2021 19:44

Imasoulman
In the real world a transwoman who has had surgery and is taking body altering hormones has changed their sex.

You don't have to accept that but in reality most people wether they approve or not accept that is what is meant by changing sex.

Do you have a source for that, please?

( BTW, it's whether. A wether is a castrated ram. I only mention this because it seems somehow pertinent to your post.)

Cleanandpress · 24/05/2021 19:30

@WoolOfBat

cleanandpress, does that mean that a man who had an accident (or the penis cut off like that Bobbit guy) changes sex according to these people?

I am trying to understand.

What are you trying to understand? If people think operation/accident/a Bobbit are all synonyms? You might be able to answer your own question there.
IAmFleshIAmBone · 24/05/2021 19:24

Balls. Worked this time

Mentioning balls on a thread about transwomen is literal violence. Please stop Angry

CallMeNutribullet · 24/05/2021 19:15

Balls. Worked this time

justawoman76 · 24/05/2021 19:15

@Cleanandpress

Yes, people talk about men having a "sex change" operation. They mean a man has had his penis removed. That's as far as it goes. "Change sex" is a euphemism for penis removal, nothing more.
Absolutely. Some trans women are also content to have orchidectomy only (removal of the testes). Does this 'count' or is it the penis that is the deal breaker? What about those who never have surgery? Are they not enough of a trans women? Are they only half of one if they have a boob job but no genital surgery?

A penile amputation or inversion does not mean a man has changed sex.
Cross sex synthetic hormones means that someone is taking cross sex synthetic hormones. It doesn't mean they have changed sex.

BilboBercow · 24/05/2021 19:14

I've been inspired to name change

SelfPortraitWithEels · 24/05/2021 19:08

You're a blender and so's your Mum. Grin

I also didn't have a haircut in 1977, as I hadn't been born yet.

WoolOfBat · 24/05/2021 19:07

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ChocolateDeficitDisorder · 24/05/2021 19:06

I had a Purdey haircut in 1977. I was assigned female at birth and I became the owner of a new food processor during the first lockdown. I actually used it this evening to make a Sambal for my Gousto meal (feel free to contact me for a code to get 60% of your first box).

Cleanandpress · 24/05/2021 18:50

Yes, people talk about men having a "sex change" operation. They mean a man has had his penis removed.
That's as far as it goes. "Change sex" is a euphemism for penis removal, nothing more.

Campervan69 · 24/05/2021 18:29

Did Imasoulman ever come back to clarify what they meant by:

"Fully Transitioned - After surgery"

Is that any surgery? So appendix removed, mole removal, varicose veins stripped...

Or any surgery whatsoever to make them outwardly resemble women more... silicone implants, hairline plugs, reshaping of the face....

Or just the inversion of the penis?

Out of interest.

Siblingquandary · 24/05/2021 18:25

Maybe this is it?

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenderBlenderName

mollythemeerkat · 24/05/2021 18:21

@Sophoclesthefox

Was 77 the really hot summer? Did something melt and that changed our views?
The Bay City Rollers sang: "The Way I feel tonight" which seems quite appropriate. (Have to admit I did google this!).
Campervan69 · 24/05/2021 18:20

Sophoclesthefox '76 was the long hot summer.

Star wars came out in '77 and it was the Queen's Silver Jubilee. We all got commemorative coins.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 24/05/2021 18:06

@Siblingquandary

I have a Nutribullet AND a Magimix. Does that make me bi-blender or blender neutral?
It makes you enviably and flexibly equipped for most recipes.
Sophoclesthefox · 24/05/2021 18:02

Blender neutral 😂

Quality gags like that is what keep me here Grin

CorvusPurpureus · 24/05/2021 17:56

I had Dougal hair AND a Dougal t-shirt. With brown cords.

UnkindlyMay · 24/05/2021 17:53

I have a photo of me in 77, dressed in brown corduroy and beige acrylic, as everyone was for most of the decade. It’s possible that the change of views is over the acceptability of brown bri-nylon as suitable childrenswear, and I’m on board if that’s what it is.

Yep, me too - though sometimes I daringly branched out into bottle green.

I had a haircut reminiscent of Dougal from the magic roundabout. So did my brothers.

Siblingquandary · 24/05/2021 17:53

I have a Nutribullet AND a Magimix. Does that make me bi-blender or blender neutral?

Deliriumoftheendless · 24/05/2021 17:48

1977 Sid Vicious replaces Glen Matlock in the Sex Pistols, they released God Save The Queen and the album (record) Never Mind The Bollocks...Here’s the Sex Pistols.

DaisiesandButtercups · 24/05/2021 17:47

I am pretty sure that ‘76 was the long hot summer in the UK.

Shmithecat2 · 24/05/2021 17:35

I had no hair in 77. Bald as a coot.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 24/05/2021 17:29

I took technical drawing, metelwork and woodwork

I was one of three girls

Unfortunately woodwork bored me witless, i was only good at melting random objects (usually belonging to other people, i have an enquiring mind) in metalwork and i was much too heavy handed in technical drawing