Kathleen Stock OBE: Trans Women Aren't Women : A discussion

Just seen this BBC news story on their home page Stonewall boss defends new strategy amid criticism
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57281448
Glad to see some mainstream coverage of the issue that might encourage others to see what’s actually happening.

Welcome to the future. Things have changed.

You can order me to read from your script all you like. I still won't be doing it.

Welcome to the future. Things have changed.

I see the mask has slipped. Is this the new 'enjoy your erasure'?

Rachael Dolezal believes she is a black woman. She changed her appearance to conform to her idea of what a black woman should look like. She evaded questions about her past, and downright lied in other circumstances. She was given job opportunities that should have gone to a person of colour. She gave the impression that she had lived life as a person of colour and knew about their personal struggles intimately, when in reality she had no basis for that.
When this was all found out she has the piss ripped out of her. Rightly so. She was masquerading as something she was not, presenting as another race of which she had no part.
No-one was forced to go along with it.
Why should sex be different? How can you truly identify as another sex? Rachel Dolezal with always be a white woman. And trans women will always be biological men.

“because they always felt the gender 'male' was all wrong, and only living as a woman, identifying as a woman would end the psychological pain of being assigned a gender they felt deeply uncomfortable with.”

So a subset of “woman” can include people who aren’t happy or comfortable with being male, and so they want to be women to avoid physic pain? There are very few social categories you can legitimately join by virtue of discomfort with what you actually are, so what I don’t get is why sex has to be any different. Deep psychological pain at reality isn’t usually an excuse for you to pretend to be something else and everyone forced to go along with it.

So Bilindab do you believe that males who have had the benefit of and androgenised puberty should compete in female's sports then?

Organisation accept the best thing to do for their health and happiness is to accept them and treat them as women

This is meaningless outside of gender stereotypes, though.

But more people accept that if someone feels so strongly they are the wrong gender, and henceforth want to live their life as another gender (or non-binary), it's their life, their business

You'll find few here who disagree with people being able to express in any way they like, certainly if it is law abiding and non harmful to others.

However, what is done or imagined in private, or in the privacy of one's own mind or imagination, becomes a public matter, and everyone's business, when it attempts to enforce itself on others and the on the meanings and negotiations of the wider world.

Because they have transitioned, or because they always felt the gender 'male' was all wrong, and only living as a woman, identifying as a woman would end the psychological pain of being assigned a gender they felt deeply uncomfortable with

Nobody has to play roles or express in any way that they feel is unnatural for them. role playing and forms of expression is exactly what gender is. Nobody is 'assigned' a gender - apart from having parents, maybe, who try to push and enforce rigid constructions upon a developing child.

We were once told the future would be female. That was a lie too.

Females are still subject to aggression from males, and male pattern behaviours continues as ever.Females are still expected to put up, shove up, and shut up.......

I have noticed this quite a bit over the past few days. I don't think that people realise just how hard a lifetime of socialisation is to change, and how easy it is to slip back into when challenged.

You are either mistaken or lying, I wonder which. Which makes me doubt some of the other names you list.

Then I suggest you might like to look them up. Examples are very easy to find. You trip over some very prominent ones on twitter who are regarded as 'influencers'. Their blogs get posted on FWR quite a bit as appeals to authority.

Welcome to the future. Things have changed

As we continually witness from the existence of movements such as 'Me Too' - and from looking around the world, it is clear some things really haven't changed. Females are still subject to aggression from males, and male pattern behaviours continues as ever.Females are still expected to put up, shove up, and shut up.......

If sex no longer existed as a meaningful reality there would be no 'trans'. 'Trans is entirely founded on rejecting sex based constructions.

And I would imagine very soon dictionaries will include trans-women under the definition of woman

That ship has long sailed since the issue is now right their in public view and the issues around safeguards are obvious to all. The house of cards is tumbling.

#welcometothefuture.

Welcome to the future. Things have changed

In a fantastical transhumanistic, non -earth based planet, maybe, but not on the earth as we know it. Sex is real and always will be. It will always have profound implications, and will most likely always be subject to some form of social shaping and construction.

it's their life, their business..

To some degree it is. However, it does become other people's business when trans rights negatively impact / errode women's rights. There is also the small matter of safeguards for children. Safeguarding is everyones business.

Used to be male-bodied?
They are still male-bodied, they are not female-bodied.
This is part of the error in thinking that posters are talking of. It’s in two parts: i) denial that a transwoman is a male person, in order to ii) suggest they are now female, because iii) biological sex is only binary when a person is transitioning “if they aren’t male, they must be female”, but for everyone else it’s a spectrum.

Excellent point. Also called "having one's cake and eating it".

Oh and also that cheesy statement is typical of this whole bandwagon. Thinking that soundbites and smug retorts of the type used by 12-year-olds in arguments with their mum, equals some kind of convincing position.

Yes indeed.

Welcome to the future. Things have changed.

I am sure that we are all very happy to have arrived at the future where a body can be stripped to its molecules and put back together again after tweaking every single cell to recode it to the other sex.

Otherwise, no. Things have not changed. Surgery has become more sophisticated I will grant you, and hormone administration too.

But the present is actually pretty much as it was a couple of decades ago, except now there are people who believe that they can access the rights needed to protect females when they are not actually female. They need their own because they have unique needs.

That is what they should be focused on. Not trying to claim another groups and destabilising that groups with accommodations for them that dilute it for the intended group.

It is rather shortsighted to give a group of women who have been involved in setting those rights up and fighting to progress those rights a superficial new 'mantra'. It is not only shortsighted, but shows your lack of knowledge and understanding in those rights.

Welcome to the future. Things have changed.

Is this a new mantra? It is just as ridiculous.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose is more apt.