“ Stonewall should stay out of trans rights war” - Times/Matthew Paris

Like this comment very much!

A heartfelt article. Being heterosexual I obviously can’t fully comprehend the nature of the aggression and opprobrium gay men and lesbians have endured over the decades. I’m emotionally evolved enough to embrace ‘otherness’ in a way I wasn’t twenty years ago. I have very close gay and lesbian friends. I’m utterly appalled at the historical treatment of homosexuals. I ought to be similarly chastened by the plight of trans individuals. I very possibly will be at some point, however not whilst I perceive their agenda to be even remotely in conflict with feminist ideologies. Women are by far and away the most subjugated group in the history of human civilisation. They have only recently reached a level of comparative equality in western civilisations, after millennia of mistreatment and deprivation. That a tiny number of biologically born males who choose to identify as women are now aggressively asserting their primacy and right to access female only spaces, leaves me cold. Women have by now surely earned the right to their own spaces. The lack of consideration towards women shown by the trans lobby is repellent to me. It feels like typically aggressive male behaviour.

[quote IvyTwines2]@Leafstamp 'It is so reassuring and pleasing to see so many people making the same types of comments made on this board. '

It is, but frustrating that the young people who really need to read them won't, because of the paywall. There was a good piece online a year or so ago, 'The Truth is Paywalled but the Lies are Free'. Being free, The Guardian is probably the main/only UK 'newspaper' read by younger readers.[/quote]
Good point.

I hope, though, that common sense and biological reality will prevail. Presumably Times readers will discuss their views with friends and family and the message will get through.

I don’t always feel this hopeful but this last week or so has article after article that shows up the problems that can come with trans ideology.

Those comments made me cry. I do feel the tide is turning, and we're going to win a war that most people don't even know about.

I think he gets the wider implications but doesn’t want to comment on them or the whole article will be torn apart by TRA.

I agree. I am happy that a range of voices are calling this out. Stonewall is the key.

A wonderful article!

I think he gets the wider implications but doesn’t want to comment on them or the whole article will be torn apart by TRA.

He understands the original purpose of Stonewall and is very well positioned to say they have lost their way.

... Although on reflection i think "unconsciously" is possibly over-charitable.

Perhaps the truth is that, after success in our great 20th-century drive for equality, Stonewall was left with bricks and mortar, an admirable staff, a CEO and a fund-raising team and, unconsciously, craved another big, newsworthy cause. Well, sometimes a big army with only small battles to fight does best simply to scale back.

We've said this here, lots of time, but it's good to see it from a founder.

I agree that it’s a shame it’s behind a paywall but very glad it has been written.

The BBC have been found out this week, it’s time Stonewall was also brought to account.

@Leafstamp 'It is so reassuring and pleasing to see so many people making the same types of comments made on this board. '

It is, but frustrating that the young people who really need to read them won't, because of the paywall. There was a good piece online a year or so ago, 'The Truth is Paywalled but the Lies are Free'. Being free, The Guardian is probably the main/only UK 'newspaper' read by younger readers.

I enjoyed reading the comments by JosephineMarch, a slight name change but it seems to be the same voice. I am pleased to note that she feels that things are improving.

Thank you for the share token.

Good article, and I see another reason that T doesn’t fit with LGB. LGB is about PRIDE in your sexuality and the way in which you were born. T in contrast often seems to be about the opposite of pride in the way you were born and surrounded by so much shame that bodies are modified.

Some really excellent comments on that article.

I’m really pleased to read this. Yes he could be stronger on the point regarding gayness being “transed away” and the impact of that on gay young people but it’s a clear and concise read and the comments are excellent.

comments on the article

3 - they need to stop shouting at us and telling us what to think. And they need to realise that they didn't invent non-conformity.

4 - It's not just like the '80s: gays and lesbians wanted parity with heterosexual people. Trans identifying males (as represented by Stonewall) want extra rights: women's rights.

Some of the most passionate voices on this are the gay men and women who realise it could have been them.

Pre-gay children like they were are being sacrificed to the counterfactual "if only I could have transitioned sooner" fantasies of straight adult males.

Clearly Parris hasn't fully grasped this yet - maybe he hasn't seen the Newsnight reports, or the David Bell interviews. But it seems he might be about to.

(Another good recent podcast on the subject, featuring Angus Fox, gay author of Quillette's recent series, and GC activist transwoman Corinna Cohn: When Sons Become Daughters: Part One).

He says it has nothing to do with us but pre lesbians and pre gay children are being conditioned and not allowed to be who they are and experimented on with trans the gay away,

Pleased to see this - it's not a brilliant article as detailed above but the comments below are an education and it's important that he's finally spoken out.

There needs to be Public Enquiry into the funding and activities of Stonewall.

There is letter on this on Sex Matters, please support it. See Twitter or Google it.

some really good comments answering this article:

1 - Stonewall's "Diversity Champions" programme seems to have taken on a mantle of authority that nobody voted for it to have.

2 - We are not the same. We are happy in the bodies we are in. We just happen to like people of the same sex. LGB is about sexuality. Trans is about gender. Apologies for spelling that out but so many people who are neither seem to have lots to say about the subject

[Stonewall] no longer cares about homosexuality other than as a cloak to wrap itself in whilst denying it exists

and the proportion of public money given to Stonewall for LGB is a misuse of taxpayers money

Stonewall should have stood clear. Now it seems to have dived into the judicial issue of whether would-be trans children can consent to chemical or surgical intervention. This is not something on which gays, lesbians or bisexuals can speak with greater authority than any other citizen. I repeat: it has nothing to do with us.

except.... many children referred to GIDs are same sex attracted

He gets so far but fails to see it. Stonewall has moved on and isn't just involving itself in the trans war - it is the trans war. It no longer cares about homosexuality other than as a cloak to wrap itself in whilst denying it exists

That’s being spelled out pretty clearly in the comments though.