Government says it is too complex to make changes to the GRA to include non binary

I don't think you know what consent is, BlueLipstickRocks.

Uncalled for.

I don't think you know what consent is, BlueLipstickRocks.

There is no legal requirement for women to stay at home and be housewives, so no, sexist men do not get to enforce their beliefs on women without their consent.

Why would you resign from your job just because it's a "female dominated industry"? Are men allowed to work there too?

Men can also get mammograms, so why would you not attend one if you need one? Males going for a mammogram is very different to (what would be the correct scenario here for comparison) telling a woman to come to a clinic for a mammogram and the HCP will be a female, and then the HCP not being female. In that scenario, the woman was told she would have a female HCP touching her uncovered breasts, which is a significant factor in whether women will choose to go for the mammogram or not. Therefore, they may only consent to be there because they were told it was a female HCP. Therefore, if it was a male HCP, the woman did not consent to that.

Consent is quite important to women, you know.

Well said.

The women who don't mind do not get to give consent for the women who do. That is not how consent works.

This is entirely relevant.

I do not know one woman who consented to this. This has been discussed now for a number of years. It seems that in general, those males with a GRC have felt entitled to continue to use the female toilets and ignore the growing voices.

Those people have been caught out with no plans for the future. How about instead, tackling male violence that means it is dangerous to use the male toilets? How about sitting down with Stonewall and stating, actually let's listen to women and campaign that female toilets and unisex toilets be created? Stonewall is a very powerful lobby group that covers 25% of employees iirc, one word from Stonewall and this would NEVER have become the issue it is.

One word from Stonewall and many of these issues could be quickly resolved.

It is truly not up to females to be the human shields or support humans of males.

It isnt the majority.

So? That's a weighted poll of a couple of thousand people. It is still many women, like I said!

Some women don't get to say "I don't need males kept away, so I'm going to let some in".

Exactly!

*Who is "they" ? It is some women.

It is MANY women.*

It isnt the majority.

A recent government survey indicated overall acceptance to post op and refusal of pre op.

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/16/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

But the woman who do mind get to decide over the women who dont?

Thats not how it works either.

Why not? How are these women being free with their boundaries being disadvantaged by some male people having to use different facilities? They have no right to be free with mine.

Your argument doesn't work in reverse, and no amount of doubling down makes it do so.

Some women don't get to say "I don't need males kept away, so I'm going to let some in".

Doesn't really work, does it.

The women who don't mind do not get to give consent for the women who do. That is not how consent works.

But the woman who do mind get to decide over the women who dont?

Thats not how it works either.

Who is "they" ? It is some women.

It is MANY women.

I have not told you to "give over" on things I disagree with so would respectfully ask you please do the same.

Well I respectfully ask you to engage with what we as individual women feel. It's not for male people to say that my consent doesn't matter because some women disagree with me.

Women were never consulted, and as I said it is infuriating when people imply that we do consent. No.

Out of consideration for the sex those spaces are intended for, who do not consent to any members of the opposite sex being present because they feel it is a violation of their privacy and dignity.

Who is "they" ? It is some women. There is no single position here representative of all women.

Some men object to women in the workplace beleiving they should be housewives. Should women stay at home because of the chauvanistic and sexist position of some men?

Where should be respect for women end? Should I resign from my job in a female dominated industry? Should I refuse my Oestrogen patches in case a woman needs them? Should I stop attending my mammograms in case a woman is uncomfortable?

You made an argument, I disagreed.

As pointed out to you, your reversal doesn't work. You can't get my consent by proxy from women who agree with you. That's not how it works.

Oh give over with the attempt to reverse the situation.

You made an argument, I disagreed.

Funny how if I tried to silence you in any way I would be instantly shot down with cries of mysoginy and sexism.

I have not told you to "give over" on things I disagree with so would respectfully ask you please do the same.

But single-sex spaces are there to protect the vulnerable, the women who, without that single-sex provision, would be excluded from public life because they need female-only spaces. There are lots of women who are happy to share mixed sex spaces and would be happy to use a "unisex" public toilet or a third option "gender neutral" space. There are women who do not mind a male doctor for intimate procedures. There are women who wouldn't mind undressing or wearing a swimming costume in the presence of males, and there are women who very much do mind. There are women who would have no problem in a mixed sex dormitory (in fact, when I was younger I frequently shared changing rooms and sleeping dorms with men and had absolutely no issue with it whatsoever).

However, there are a lot of women who do mind, and that is why single-sex provisions were established. Because it is the women who do mind who are vulnerable and disadvantaged by not having a female-only provision.

The women who don't mind do not get to give consent for the women who do. That is not how consent works.

In matters of consent, "No" trumps "yes", every time.

Why should I as a long time post op transsexual with a GRC working within a female dominated industry start using the mens toilets because of a pushback against the transgender umbrella?

Out of consideration for the sex those spaces are intended for, who do not consent to any members of the opposite sex being present because they feel it is a violation of their privacy and dignity.

I find the assumption that all women are equally opposed to be infurtiating. Yes, some are. Just as some are accepting.

Oh give over with the attempt to reverse the situation. It's not about who is and who isn't opposed. Women were never asked for our consent. I wasn't asked for my consent, It wasn't considered important. It's that simple. Whether or not women say yes, you can't simply presume their consent.

I am.perfectly comfortable with sharing spaces with post op Transexuals. For me, womens spaces should be penis free zones . If someone is so gender dysphoric that they have removed their male sex organ then I am comfortable sharing toilets with them. However, how does one legislate for that ? What about sports? Prisons? It's a nightmare brought about by Stonewall at el riding roughshod over womens boundaries. Post op transexuals have been accessing womens spaces for decades and have been accepted as there are so few of them. Now any man in a skirt can access womens spaces and this is utterly unacceptable.

I find the assumption that women en masse consented to males in our spaces infuriating. No we fucking didn't.

I find the assumption that all women are equally opposed to be infurtiating. Yes, some are. Just as some are accepting.

You have a perfectly valid position - it doesnt mean it should be forced on all women.

It's ALL MALES. Whether they are trans or not is irrelevant

Its very relevant.

Why should I as a long time post op transsexual with a GRC working within a female dominated industry start using the mens toilets because of a pushback against the transgender umbrella?

I see a lot of "women need...". The reality is women are just as diverse as trans. Some women support self ID and anyone identifying into a female space; others support those who are post op and some are exclude post op. Which group gets to win? There is no united voice for women. You dont get to say "this is what I want....I am a woman therefore this is what all woman want".

I know for a fact that those I work with for example are perfectly happy for me to use a womans space as post op. Some are happy simply by virtue of my being trans and would accept anyone with original equipment (though I disagree). Others accept me for being post op but would reject those who arent. I know of one person who is accepting due to a GRC.

What I have been told by more than a few people is that all this mess comes down to a right to say no on individual cases. Same as with pronouns. Its about not having enforced rules that define all trans as equal and to support one is to support all.

You did not have our consent. We were never asked.

I find the assumption that women en masse consented to males in our spaces infuriating. No we fucking didn't.

You can call it "All Of The Male Umbrella" if that helps you to understand, Blue.