Government says it is too complex to make changes to the GRA to include non binary

We're saying that, to us, those differences are not relevant to the discussion of FEMALE-ONLY spaces.

We do not think that the differences between a post-op transsexual, and a cross-dressing fetishist are significant enough for women to lose female-only spaces. Just like we don't think the differences between gay/straight males are enough to allow gay males in. Nor do we think the differences between single/married males are significant enough to allow married males in. Nor do we think the differences between atheist/religious males are significant enough to allow religious males in. Because their own particular characteristics are not relevant, and do not take primacy, over their sex. Which is male. Which disqualifies them from female-only spaces/services/sports.

Why the double standard?

Do you have any idea why there's feminism, but not an equivalent for men?

Do you understand why womens spaces, sports, political movements exist and why men don't need the equivalent?

Females who have suffered trauma may also be traumatised by females who have had testosterone and surgery and may cause those females to be distressed.

Is the fact you are willing to accept this as some kind of 'gotcha on double standards' to be taken as you not understanding these female's needs at all?

We wish to draw distinctions between us and all males, including all the subgroups within that umbrella. While we may recognise that there are many different subcategories under the "male umbrella", some of which are more of an issue than others, we still want to exclude all males from female-only spaces, services and sports, as the law allows.

Exactly. As I said, it's not personal. But I'm not comfortable with any male people in female spaces.

refusing to recognise transsexual is diffent to transgender.

And the Pope is different to my dh, yet neither of them have any place in women's spaces. Transexual males have something in common with transgender males, that they also have in common with the Pope and with my dh, which they do not have in common with me or with any other women.

Transgender has become an umbrella term which includes transsexual. If you do not like this, it is up to you to fight it. It is not up to us women. However you define yourself, if you are male you do not belong in women's or girls' spaces.

Your refusal to accept that transgender and transsexual are different yet insist on rigidly defining woman is disgusting and offensive to me.

Not much I can do about that really. I define women as an adult of the female sex. It's as simple as that.

Is it ok to say that a post op transsexual is the same as a cross dressing fetishist? All just men?

These two sentences are not the same question, are they? In some ways they are different, like any humans. But yes they are both biologically male adults.

Stop twisting my words.

Thats what youve been doing to me repeatedly.

Your refusal to accept that transgender and transsexual are different yet insist on rigidly defining woman is disgusting and offensive to me.

As you recognise yourself, you are a person of the male sex, and not a woman. She is not dismissing what you are; she is recognising, as you have, what you are not: female.

Why are you now denying something that you were fine with further up the thread? Is it because we said no?

You wish to draw distinctions between subcategories of male-sexed people. To be able to say that, to you, you are not the same as them.

We wish to draw distinctions between us and all males, including all the subgroups within that umbrella. While we may recognise that there are many different subcategories under the "male umbrella", some of which are more of an issue than others, we still want to exclude all males from female-only spaces, services and sports, as the law allows.

Many transmen understand that their presentation causes some other female's distress and choose not to retraumatise other females. I have seen these discussions take place on other social media platforms. Many of these transmen use the male toilets.

So transmen may use mens spaces but transwomen may not use womens spaces?

Why the double standard?

I was not referring to you boundaries

I was referring to my boundaries in the first place. As you well know.

They are to me, when it comes to males in my spaces I don't make any distinction

Stop twisting my words.

Since the focus is on woman and girls what spaces do you beleive transmen should use?

this discussion has occurred across numerous threads now.

Many transmen understand that their presentation causes some other female's distress and choose not to retraumatise other females. I have seen these discussions take place on other social media platforms. Many of these transmen use the male toilets.

The fact is, this is NOT cut and dried and it is not a 'gotcha' at all. This is about the needs of females to feel safe in situations where they are vulnerable and to have that respected.

"And that is a disgusting thing to say.

No. My boundaries are not disgusting. I simply don't want males in female spaces. Any of them. It's not personal, it's just what I feel is appropriate."

I was not referring to you boundaries as you well know. I was referring to your refusal to accept that transgender and transsexual are not the same thing. This is grossly offensive.

Is it ok to say that a post op transsexual is the same as a cross dressing fetishist? All just men?

You seem to have misunderstood my point. Again.

Same here. This is not women's issue.

Of course transgenderism is womens issue. Transgender is everyones issue in its current form.

What seems to be happening though is a focus on trans only where it effects women. When the problem can be dismissed it will be.

And that is a disgusting thing to say.

No. My boundaries are not disgusting. I simply don't want males in female spaces. Any of them. It's not personal, it's just what I feel is appropriate.

The point is and will always be that "woman" is an adult human female and it is ''males" and only "males" who are attempting to redefine this.

The second point is and will always be that when it comes to 'consent' around the usage of toilets - women were NEVER asked in the past. Women have been TOLD by males that those males have the right to use that space (and even male doctors telling male patients that now they have had operations they can use spaces that male doctors had NO RIGHT to give away). Those males NEVER even considered the needs of the females using them and NEVER did anything about creating spaces for their own needs.

The third point is and will always be some females have needs that require these spaces to remain for females. That other females show no empathy for those females needs still doesn't mean they can sign away all rights to female single sex spaces. It just doesn't work that way.

Let's not get caught up in what sub set of the category of males people belong in, regardless of what body parts they do and do not have, or the way they choose to present themselves.

This is a feminist board. I focus on the rights of women and girls, I have absolutely no interest in the different definitions under the trans umbrella.

Same here. This is not women's issue.

This is a feminist board. I focus on the rights of women and girls, I have absolutely no interest in the different definitions under the trans umbrella. They can be as woolly as you want them to be. It's your movement, fuck all to do with me.

Why is it my movement ? It has nothing to do with me.

Since the focus is on woman and girls what spaces do you beleive transmen should use?

Even if it could possibly be proven,that surgery/ wearing 'feminine' clothing / hormones ect,reduced men's rate of offending to that of a woman, I would still say no to men in women's spaces. Because they are men,and women's spaces are not a prize for the most passing or worthy.
Like another pp,a few years ago, I shared a joke about people the US fighting about who used women's bathrooms,whilst I was peeing in my horse trailer. I knew no better. I'm completely ashamed that I thought it jokeworthy now. I didn't know then that it was the start of being expected to roll over and hand my hard won rights,freedoms and protections to any male who fancied helping himself.
I do not consent.

This is a feminist board. I focus on the rights of women and girls, I have absolutely no interest in the different definitions under the trans umbrella. They can be as woolly as you want them to be. It's your movement, fuck all to do with me.

Once 'women' becomes a woolly word that means different things in different situations, and more crucially includes male/men, we lose the ability to organise without men and without their permission.

But its ok to make transsexual a wooly word; to decide its all just the same, no different to transgender or anything else.

It isn't just about safety.

It isn't. It's also about being able to be recognised as a class that is independent and separate to men.

Once 'women' becomes a woolly word that means different things in different situations, and more crucially includes male/men, we lose the ability to organise without men and without their permission.

*Once again the conflation of transgender and transsexual.

They are not the same thing.

They are to me, when it comes to males in my spaces I don't make any distinction.*

And that is a disgusting thing to say.

You dont get to tell me the importance of defining the meaning of "woman" and the importance of preserving language whilst at the same time turning round and dismissing what I am and refusing to recognise transsexual is diffent to transgender.

It is hypocritical to expect me to do something you refuse to do yourself.

There are factors other than safety at play too. Personally, I think 6 is the oldest a boy should use women's toilets. Plenty of women disagree with me.

Not so very long ago there was a boy of about 8 in the ladies loos, giggling and trying to peek at women through the gap in the doors. Highly inappropriate. I felt perfectly safe, but I wasn't comfortable with him there.

It isn't just about safety.