Government says it is too complex to make changes to the GRA to include non binary

Well.. well.. well.... Why are they so eager to cover it up?

And how do they justify asking MN to delete the words of Christine Burns, a pioneer in trans rights?

LangClegsInSpace is the info and screenshots you posted available anywhere else, like on a blog post? If not, it should be. It was extremely useful to have it all laid out like that.

I missed your comment Lang but they never are keen on history and can't let it be seen.

How am I meant to objectively tell the difference between a transsexual and a transvestite or autogynephilic male?

How am I meant to objectively tell the difference between a pre-op transsexual and a post-op transsexual?

How am I meant to objectively tell the difference between a transsexual with a GRC and a transsexual without a GRC?

🤔🤔🤔🤔

Isn’t that interesting.

Gosh, somebody's not keen on history.

Screenshots from Christine Burns' book - Pressing Matters Vol. 1. explaining PFC's rationale for using the word 'trans'.

Here is an early version of the 'trans umbrella' from 1994. Note the inclusion of 'crossdresser', 'transvestic fetishist' and 'transvestite'.

(from here: public.oed.com/blog/march-2018-update-release-notes-formal-language-sexuality-gender-identity/ )

The trans rights movement in the UK started with the Beaumont Society - a club for heterosexual cross-dressing men and their wives, set up in 1966. Transsexuals were permitted to join but the main focus until relatively recently was definitely male cross-dressers.

www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/6971183/a-short-beaumont-history-the-beaumont-society

The Beaumont Society was started by Alice Purnell, following an epiphany in a soho sex shop. You can hear all about it in this enlightening interview of Alice by best mate Christine Burns:

soundcloud.com/justplainsense/jps90-alice

Burns went on to set up Press For Change with Stephen Whittle in 1992. In the early 1970's Whittle had co-founded the Manchester Transvestite and Transsexual Support Group, and had also joined Beaumont as the first ftm member.

podcast.plain-sense.co.uk/2008/05/23/an-interview-with-stephen-whittle-obe/

PFC is the organisation that is pretty much solely responsible for the gender recognition act being passed in 2004. They championed the use of the term 'trans' precisely because it made no distinction between 'transsexual' and 'transvestite'.

So I'm sorry if you don't like being lumped in with transvestites and crossdressers BlueLipstick but it's tricky to find a time in history when these groups were not intertwined.

None of this is women's problem in any case.

Why aren't more people getting angry with men for their lack of kindness, instead of berating women for standing their ground?

For how many millenia have men held the levers of power and the finance to ensure that power? How long have men had the ability to sort out the issue of men being unkind? Why don't they? Because it's far easier to just push the issue out of sight and mind and leave women to bear the brunt of it, the GRA was a perfect example of that in action.

In my local high street at the weekend, I noticed that only girls' tops had hearts and slogans about 'being kind' on them. Nobody seems to think about giving that message to boys.

Why aren't more people getting angry with men for their lack of kindness, instead of berating women for standing their ground?

This is not the fault of women, it wasn't even contemplated that women should have a say, the blowback is not the fault of women either, our needs and wants do not align with this and maybe, just maybe if we'd been considered or even bloody well asked a different and more effective solution that safeguarded everyone would have been found.

Much of their campaigning remained on the quiet. The passage of the 2004 law to give trans people legal status was "remarkable," says Burns, because "the government was able to pass an entire act in parliament without anyone throwing a fit in the press".

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

Also the idea that given women's past and present of being locked away because they didn't conform, or for any number of other reasons.

The suggestion that actually this is an action women support as long as it's done to someone else.

Crikey.

Just catching up.

Blue stands by the comment that women on this thread want to lock blue up in an asylum.

Well then. There's a lot of women on this thread. If you think that's the sort of thing women generally want for people then I would suggest you don't know women as well as you think you do.

As to GRA its still a hugely gatekept process and I don't see it as being the big issue. 5,000 GRC holders in 15 years versus 600,000 transgender at lowest estimate so that's much less than 1%.

The GRA was only intended to apply to about 5000 people, which was the estimated number of transsexuals at the time the law was passed.

If a figure of 600,000 had been mentioned in the parliamentary debates at that time, I suspect a different solution might have been found to comply with the ECtHR ruling that transsexuals should be allowed to marry someone of the same sex.

Many of us have read the blogs by the males (which I am sure you and would both agree are not dysmorphic or dysphoric) gloating about how easy it was to get a GRC because certain doctors assisted with a GD diagnosis.

Plenty say it - doesn't mean it's true.

Many lie about this because frankly noone wants to admit they don't qualify.

So no. It is not the EA which gives access to single-sex spaces, services and sports to members of the opposite (legal) sex.

This. We have had a million threads about this, the EA does not give positive rights to MTF trans people to access women's spaces and services. GRC (male) holders are in most cases considered legally female so a higher bar is needed to exclude them. But there are exemptions even to that, both to the GRA and EA.

It most certainly does!

No it doesn't, that's a misrepresentation.

The idea that a man can get female recorded on their birth certificate and that change has to remain confidential has compromised women and childrens safeguarding and the ability of informed consent.

This. The GRA is very much a problem.

*The number of doctors willing to diagnose people who self-ID as trans with gender dysphoria - a condition with no objectively measurable criteria - increased significantly, though.

Which is a factor.*

Not for a GRC. There is a small pool of approved doctors.

The number of doctors willing to diagnose people who self-ID as trans with gender dysphoria - a condition with no objectively measurable criteria - increased significantly, though.

Which is a factor.