Government says it is too complex to make changes to the GRA to include non binary

'Bluelipstick rock's

I'm so sad to see you separate us. I'm a fully transitioned transsexual as of '99 with a bit of added extra in '16 but, I'm transgender like many others. When the right wing have used the GC to eliminate TG they will come for you too. There's nowhere to hide and and they hate you no less than they hate me. Perhaps you're useful for now but don't kid yourself that's out of love. You only have to see some of the outrageous mask off stuff they've been hammering stonewall with over the last few days. Much of it disgusting! Please look after yourself, no matter how much you disagree, the GC wont. ,

And this is the exact thing that stonewall etc have done.

The GRC legislation predicted about 5k GRC and got it pretty much bang on.

With a smaller cohort, and women turning a blind eye pretty much, it was kind of ok.

Then comes transgender, stonewall, self ID. And women go hold on a fucking minute.

And the only response is to push back on the whole lot.

That's not our fault. Talk to stonewall. And the individuals who have been working on getting things changed quietly in the background for years.

Rapists in women's prisons
Males in women's sport
Self id into changing rooms
Kick boxing rugby etc saying twaw no problem

It's a hard no now. Not our fault. Not suddenly being mean. Reacting to a massive breach of the social contract, the changes being made at speed to everything we needed -our words even.

No. That's that.

Neither of you have actually changed sex, so why do you feel you (plural - transsexuals) need to be a different subcategory within the Gender Reassignment protected characteristic?

There is a huge difference between a fully transitioned transexual and a transvestite. I am anti self id, but pro GRC. I would like to think that we could space share with some strict gate keeping. It's worked fine for years after all. It seems impossible at the moment though, whilst the T is highjacked and so many people are trying to destroy the social contract that existed.

On a personal level, I along with many others have self Id'd into spaces for a long time.

I’ve seen this surface a lot recently, and I’m sorry to say that it really isn’t the knock out blow you think it is. Women do have the expectation that single sex facilities are single sex, and with the exception of maybe public loos, they have been. Sports teams, prisons, hospital wards, rape crisis centres have not been open to transwomen until very recently. The more you double down on “women never had the right to single sex spaces”, the more push back you’ll get, because a large percentage of women very much do want that and are surprised to hear that apparently they never had that right. It’s an own goal.

www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/male-bodied-transgender-inmate-housed-with-women-prisoners/

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/irelands-self-id-nightmare

More links and discussion about what is happening in Ireland on this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3746471-Defence-lawyer-says-that-the-Gender-Recognition-Act-has-placed-the-State-in-an-impossible-position-with-regard-to-transgender-prisoners

On a personal level, I along with many others have self Id'd into spaces for a long time.

That makes you part of the problem.

What gives you the right to do that?

That's between you and Stonewall. It is not something that should be legislated. It is not the place of the law to define what each faith is or is not.

Stonewall have declared themselves an authority on trans. They are not.

The Government should never have listened to them but thankfully have seem the error if their ways.

The Government may not get to decide what trans means but why did it turn to Stonewall? Would it ask the Jewish community to speak for Christians?

Oldcrone - For unknown reasons, I can't reply to you direct. From what I know, Ireland have used their democratic rights to legislate for self ID. As far as I know there hasn't been a significant increase in offending against women that can be attributed to that alone. On a personal level, I along with many others have self Id'd into spaces for a long time. Of course 'show us your chromosomes' may well become a thing but, I'm guessing the young ain't on-board with that.

So I assume you disagree with what Debbie Hayton says in this article:

I entirely disagree with that statement.

Dysphoria and dysmorphia are very different things.

I have a right to be differentuated from transvestites, cross dressers and drag queens.

That's between you and Stonewall. It is not something that should be legislated. It is not the place of the law to define what each faith is or is not.

You cat disagree all you like about rights but the fact remains a transsexual is very different to a transvestite.

So I assume you disagree with what Debbie Hayton says in this article: quillette.com/2020/02/02/i-may-have-gender-dysphoria-but-i-still-prefer-to-base-my-life-on-biology-not-fantasy/

Cross-dressing—or transvestism as it once was called—is more common than some imagine: A 2005 study in the Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy found that almost three percent of Swedish men reported at least one episode of transvestic fetishism. Of course, this is not the same as being transgender. But since autogynephilia is associated with both the need to dress in women’s clothes and feminize one’s body, we can never fully demarcate the two. (Thus, an old joke in the community about transitioners who start out as occasional cross-dressers: “What’s the difference between a transvestite and a transsexual? About five years.”)

Debbie Hayton, Helen Belcher, Robin Moira White have all said that they don't have GRCs. I'm sure there are many others. I don't know what their reasons are. You could ask them.

I know at least one on that list who wants a GRC but doesn't qualify.

And a Hindu may be very different to a Christian, but their religious beliefs have no bearing on whether they should be entitled to appropriate the rights of the opposite sex.

That may be but it also doesn't give people rights to decide they are all the same!

I have a right to be differentuated from transvestites, cross dressers and drag queens.

There are a few governments across the world who appear to have sorted this out. As far as I can see complications have been few.

Have the Irish sorted out the problem of male prisoners identifying as women in order to be sent to women's prisons then? Can you post some links?

And a Hindu may be very different to a Christian, but their religious beliefs have no bearing on whether they should be entitled to appropriate the rights of the opposite sex.

Or, if you prefer, females remain female, and males remain male however they present and regardless of any body modifications.

In other words "you're all just men".

You cat disagree all you like about rights but the fact remains a transsexual is very different to a transvestite.

[quote stumbledin]As set out in the response to the Gender Recognition Act consultation, there are no plans to make changes to the 2004 Act.

Following a considerable amount of consultation with the public and representative organisations, the Government decided that the current provisions within the GRA allow for those that wish to legally change their sex to do so fairly.

The 2018 GRA consultation did not bring forward any proposals to extend the GRA to provide legal recognition to a third, or non-binary, gender. The Government noted that there were complex practical consequences for other areas of the law, service provision and public life if provision were to be made for non-binary gender recognition in the GRA.

In UK law individuals are considered to be the sex that is registered on their birth certificate – either male or female. The GRA provides a means for transgender people to change the sex on their birth certificate, but there is currently no provision for those who do not identify as male or female.

This Government wants everybody in the UK to feel safe and confident to be themselves.

We are committed to tackling all forms of homophobic, biphobic and transphobic hate crime, and are working with the Home Office on the cross-Government Hate Crime Action Plan. The Government has asked the Law Commission to review the current hate crime legislation, which includes exploring whether homophobic, biphobic and transphobic hate crime should be considered an aggravated offence. We will also take an assessment of local support for hate crime victims and improve reporting and recording of LGBT hate crimes through supporting additional police training.

Following Parliamentary approval on 8th October 2020, voluntary questions on sexual orientation and gender identity were included in the 2021 Census for England and Wales which took place on Sunday 21 March 2021. Final data on sexual orientation and gender identity from the 2021 Census for England and Wales will likely be available from 2023, with initial Census findings planned for publication in March 2022 (timelines subject to change as work progresses). This will help to provide more robust population size estimates for England and Wales than are currently available.

This Government is committed to supporting all LGBT people, tackling discrimination and improving the lives of all citizens.

Cabinet Office
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This is in response to a petition that I will not link to for fear this thread will get banished to the wastelands of the petition section.

But there is a news story here. uk.news.yahoo.com/non-binary-legal-recognition-too-153914753.html[/quote]
There are a few governments across the world who appear to have sorted this out. As far as I can see complications have been few. The UK has been involved in the race to Mars and regularly copes with the crappiest weather known to mankind. If it can't accept that a few folk are different how on earth can we expect to be part of a part of a clean future? Salt water crocs have nailed about 200,000,000 years. Offended of SW19 has a long way to go.

Many transsexuals don't get a GRC, so it's not seen as the differentiator by them.

Simply not true - not sure where you got that information from.

And I am transsexual with GRC.

The GRA is the differentiator between transsexual and transgender. You may not like it - in not especially keen - but a differentiator is essential.

Why? That's not why the GRA was passed. It was in order to create a legal fiction so that two people of the same sex could marry. It is no longer needed.

Many transsexuals don't get a GRC, so it's not seen as the differentiator by them.

Or, if you prefer, females remain female, and males remain male however they present and regardless of any body modifications.