Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Government says it is too complex to make changes to the GRA to include non binary

312 replies

stumbledin · 21/05/2021 19:51

As set out in the response to the Gender Recognition Act consultation, there are no plans to make changes to the 2004 Act.

Following a considerable amount of consultation with the public and representative organisations, the Government decided that the current provisions within the GRA allow for those that wish to legally change their sex to do so fairly.

The 2018 GRA consultation did not bring forward any proposals to extend the GRA to provide legal recognition to a third, or non-binary, gender. The Government noted that there were complex practical consequences for other areas of the law, service provision and public life if provision were to be made for non-binary gender recognition in the GRA.

In UK law individuals are considered to be the sex that is registered on their birth certificate – either male or female. The GRA provides a means for transgender people to change the sex on their birth certificate, but there is currently no provision for those who do not identify as male or female.

This Government wants everybody in the UK to feel safe and confident to be themselves.

We are committed to tackling all forms of homophobic, biphobic and transphobic hate crime, and are working with the Home Office on the cross-Government Hate Crime Action Plan. The Government has asked the Law Commission to review the current hate crime legislation, which includes exploring whether homophobic, biphobic and transphobic hate crime should be considered an aggravated offence. We will also take an assessment of local support for hate crime victims and improve reporting and recording of LGBT hate crimes through supporting additional police training.

Following Parliamentary approval on 8th October 2020, voluntary questions on sexual orientation and gender identity were included in the 2021 Census for England and Wales which took place on Sunday 21 March 2021. Final data on sexual orientation and gender identity from the 2021 Census for England and Wales will likely be available from 2023, with initial Census findings planned for publication in March 2022 (timelines subject to change as work progresses). This will help to provide more robust population size estimates for England and Wales than are currently available.

This Government is committed to supporting all LGBT people, tackling discrimination and improving the lives of all citizens.

Cabinet Office
------

This is in response to a petition that I will not link to for fear this thread will get banished to the wastelands of the petition section.

But there is a news story here. uk.news.yahoo.com/non-binary-legal-recognition-too-153914753.html

OP posts:
Didactylos · 26/05/2021 05:16

Nicegerbil, if I could reccomend your post I would do so thousands of times

NiceGerbil · 26/05/2021 03:14

'So what - I should he locked away somewhere? That was the view up until the 60s of mental health where people were locked in asylums lest others were disturbed.'

I find this comment utterly and totally crass.

Women and girls were put in asylums for years by their families. Because they had no say. Because their behaviour did not fit. Because they were pregnant.

www.dailymail.co.uk/home/you/article-2141741/Sent-asylum-The-Victorian-women-locked-suffering-stress-post-natal-depression-anxiety.html

Look at the pictures of those women.

The Magdalen laundries.

'The last Magdalene Laundry in Ireland closed for good on Oct 25, 1996.

Also known as Magdalene asylums, Magdalene Laundries were cruel and medieval institutions in which women were imprisoned, stripped of their human rights and abused sexually and otherwise.

Women sent to the Laundries were deemed “mischievous” or “scandalous” at an incredibly young age and spent years and years of their lives doing penance for their sins, guarded by ruthless nuns.'

Nineteen ninety six.

All over the world NOW women and girls have their behaviour, their clothes, even their bodies controlled and if they transgress then assault or death are socially accepted consequences.

One that upset me. America. I think because of the visceral description. (Don't read if squeamish).

'We went through the top of the head, I think Rosemary was awake. She had a mild tranquilizer. I made a surgical incision in the brain through the skull. It was near the front. It was on both sides. We just made a small incision, no more than an inch." The instrument Dr. Watts used looked like a butter knife. He swung it up and down to cut brain tissue. "We put an instrument inside", he said. As Dr. Watts cut, Dr. Freeman asked Rosemary some questions. For example, he asked her to recite the Lord's Prayer or sing "God Bless America" or count backward. "We made an estimate on how far to cut based on how she responded." When Rosemary began to become incoherent, they stopped.[25]'

Rosemary Kennedy. Her mother wasn't told what they were going to do. She spent the rest of her life needing care. If you Google her, look at the pictures.

So. You know. Try a different argument. Because that comment.

You don't think seriously that anyone on this thread wants you locked up in an asylum? They don't even exist any more. Bedlam is gone.

We got locked up in large numbers. Young girls. Who didn't behave properly. Women were in there for their whole lives. Because their families had them put away.

So. You have zero risk of going to an asylum in England. There aren't any.

And do you think it's really ok to raise that Spectre? Yes Ireland is a different country. But look at the year FFS look at it.

You have NO chance of being committed. Because some women on the internet disagree with you.

So why say it? Are you being deliberately that provocative? Or do you just write. Whatever.

Women spent their whole lives in those places. Put in as teens. Lived and died there.

Trust me. No women on this thread want that for you.

You know that I'm sure. So why raise the asylum topic? You must know how we were treated.

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 25/05/2021 13:32

Protecting women's rights doesn't mean you get to dismiss transsexuals. You don't get to decide the because I'm not a woman I'm no different to any other man - that's just not true.

But our priority is protecting women's and girls' rights. Including the partners and daughters of transitioners. I have friends who are both & I know that it's that much harder for them to be comfortable or able to talk openly in spaces or groups which are female-only in theory but not in practice.

If Stonewall had fought for safe third spaces for transpeople 'without exception' and for your right not to be discriminated against for being trans, while leaving women's spaces out of it, I think we'd all have been right behind them, especially given that many of us used to simply not see a problem.

But they didn't, and so we've spent the past however many years (coming up to six in my case, since [[https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_posts/2502963-Guest-post-Sandi-Toksvig-The-time-is-right-for-the-Womens-Equality-Party
the thread where Sophie Walker expressed WEP's views on gender]]) defending ourselves.

I don't think anyone on the thread has said you're 'no different to any other man'. But we're concentrating on women & girls.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/05/2021 12:35

At no point has anybody said this. Nor will anybody on this board say it. If such a statement were to be made on MN it would rightly be deleted as completely unacceptable.

Quite.

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 25/05/2021 12:34

If such a statement were to be made on MN it would rightly be deleted as completely unacceptable.

Exactly. And plenty of us on here have / have had mental health issues.

JellySlice · 25/05/2021 12:30

So what - I should he locked away somewhere? That was the view up until the 60s of mental health where people were locked in asylums lest others were disturbed.

At no point has anybody said this. Nor will anybody on this board say it. If such a statement were to be made on MN it would rightly be deleted as completely unacceptable.

OldCrone · 25/05/2021 10:00

Just as women didn't cause this mess neither did transsexuals. This mess came from heterosexual cross dressers who wanted to appropriate certain things. In your quest to dismiss the modern agenda you are throwing transsexuals under the bus.

You seem to be making a distinction based on sexuality. Are you suggesting that only homosexual transsexuals should be allowed a GRC? Because I don't think the GRA specifies that at all. And we all know that some heterosexual males who start off as fetishistic cross dressers escalate to full transition with hormones and surgery.

Sophoclesthefox · 25/05/2021 09:08

Is dysmorphia not the belief that ones body is wrong?

Maybe it would help, blue if you walked us through how you are distinguishing between dysphoria and dysmorphia and what it means for you and for women generally that doctors agreed with your beliefs about yourself to form your diagnosis, without going straight to insinuations that women here want you locked up? Nobody here wants you locked up, no more than anyone here hates Steph.

SpindleWhorl · 25/05/2021 08:51

@BlueLipstickRocks

Message deleted by MNHQ.

I find it bizarre to say the least that MN would delete a post where I stated how Stonewall had impacted me with their agenda.

I didn't see your post before it was deleted, Blue. Maybe you could rephrase it?
Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/05/2021 08:28

You only have to see some of the outrageous mask off stuff they've been hammering stonewall with over the last few days. Much of it disgusting!

Do tell. What is this awful "mask off" stuff? What I've seen is a charity largely funded by tax payers facing some much needed and deserved scrutiny.

BlueLipstickRocks · 25/05/2021 07:52

Message deleted by MNHQ.

I find it bizarre to say the least that MN would delete a post where I stated how Stonewall had impacted me with their agenda.

BlueLipstickRocks · 25/05/2021 07:49

Why should your need to have your beliefs validated

Since when was body dysmorohia a belief?

Transsexual is not a belief or an identity - its a diagnosis. I am transeexual because I have a diagnosis of F64.0 (ICD) Transsexualism.

Your dysmorphia and your resulting sense of self, your personal sense of identity and how you express it, should be protected in law - but not imposed upon others.

So what - I should he locked away somewhere? That was the view up until the 60s of mental health where people were locked in asylums lest others were disturbed.

Protecting women's rights doesn't mean you get to dismiss transsexuals. You don't get to decide the because I'm not a woman I'm no different to any other man - that's just not true.

JellySlice · 25/05/2021 07:37

Why shouldn't I have my dysmorphia recognised? Why shouldnt I get medical treatment appropriate for transsexuals?

I accept and support this. But why should this be imposed upon others? Why should your need to have your beliefs validated result in the falsification of records or the removal of others' rights?

You need your identity as a 'male woman' recognised. How is that different to someone who identifies as 'non-binary'? Should they not be entitled to the same legal recognition?

It cannot work. Legislating that an adult male human can be anything other than a man, or an adult female human anything other than a woman, creates a harmful legal fiction with appalling ramifications for women, children and the vulnerable.

Your dysmorphia and your resulting sense of self, your personal sense of identity and how you express it, should be protected in law - but not imposed upon others.

BlueLipstickRocks · 25/05/2021 07:34

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

highame · 25/05/2021 07:26

I find it so sad that Stonewall were too consumed in their own power grab to recognise the damage they were going to do. They have inflicted damage on Lesbians and fully transitioned transwomen. I knew someone years ago who transitioned fully and she does not resemble the TRA's who have destroyed the social contract.

I feel that women have been really hurt by what has happened and we feel angry and betrayed. I hope this wont last, I hope legislators will see the errors and make adjustments. I feel we will then all be in a place to see what is and what isn't possible.

Don't forget that Doctors were advising Transwomen to use women's loos as part of their living as a woman. So many things are to blame but the worst thing of all, for us, is that no one asked us and Stonewall still don't want our opinion.

BlueLipstickRocks · 25/05/2021 06:55

I'm so sad to see you separate us. I'm a fully transitioned transsexual as of '99 with a bit of added extra in '16 but, I'm transgender like many others.

Given your disrespect towards women don't include me in "us". I oppose self ID. I think the GRC should require surgery. I oppose trans in opposite sex sports etc..

I question anyone who claims to be a post op transsexual yet brags about self iDing into womens spaces. In the act of doing so you invalidate any claim to womanhood because you clearly demonstrate that you don't see things the way women do.

I will fight a corner for transsexuals to continue to be recognised and supported appropriated. That doesn't mean I'm going to ignore women and treat them the way you are right now.

Sophoclesthefox · 25/05/2021 06:47

Yes, that does have an assumption underpinning it that women are passive agents of some sort of shadowy right wing (male only?) extermination squad, doesn’t it? Multiple layers of nonsense. Thinking that feminism is being used as a basis for the drive to eliminate anyone really plays on the trope that has always been latent in some people’s minds that feminists are out to secretly destroy men. Not sure how we’re supposed to want that when we don’t know our own minds and are being led by the nose by Nazis, but logical, factual debate is clearly not the game here.

Nobody here hates trans people, steph. Why are you telling people that we do? What is it about feminists discussing women’s rights that makes you conclude that is what is behind this?

BlueLipstickRocks · 25/05/2021 06:47

*And the only response is to push back on the whole lot.

That's not our fault. *

Its not my fault either. I agree its a huge problem but I fail to see how transsexuals can be seen as acceptable çollateral damage.

This whole scenario started as a push back to self ID. Why did it need to become "and even if youre not we don't care you're all just men in dresses".

BlueLipstickRocks · 25/05/2021 06:44

"You haven't explained why you need a differentiator between 'transsexuals' and 'transgender' people. For what reason? What do you think group A should be able to do that is different to what group B can do?"

You have jumped from identity to rights. This don't have to be the same issue.

Why shouldn't I have my dysmorphia recognised? Why shouldnt I get medical treatment appropriate for transsexuals?

Why must I be thrown into a transgender pot and told I'm just the same as all the rest? You have the right to say I'm not a woman- you don't have a right to say that I'm no different to any other man because that's frankly not true.

Just as women didn't cause this mess neither did transsexuals. This mess came from heterosexual cross dressers who wanted to appropriate certain things. In your quest to dismiss the modern agenda you are throwing transsexuals under the bus.

BettyFilous · 25/05/2021 06:21

@Cleanandpress

When the right wing have used the GC to eliminate TG they will come for you too.

I don't think your patronising statements here like this are as influential as you might think.
It comes across a bit generational really, you are clearly used to an historical mindset that views women as a passive entity that others control and manipulate. And therein lies your major fault line.
We aren't. You are going to have to get used to this sooner or later.

I thought the same. I also smiled at the sexist assumption that we should be looking after the transexuals - the usual ‘universal Mum’/service human trope. No thanks. Feminist effort centres women and girls, for GC feminists this means the biological ones.
NiceGerbil · 25/05/2021 00:57

That post was aimed at the trans poster, no one else.

It was interesting to read though.

Cleanandpress · 25/05/2021 00:39

When the right wing have used the GC to eliminate TG they will come for you too.

I don't think your patronising statements here like this are as influential as you might think.
It comes across a bit generational really, you are clearly used to an historical mindset that views women as a passive entity that others control and manipulate. And therein lies your major fault line.
We aren't. You are going to have to get used to this sooner or later.

WhatyoutalkingaboutWillis · 25/05/2021 00:24

NiceGerbil
And this is the exact thing that stonewall etc have done.

The GRC legislation predicted about 5k GRC and got it pretty much bang on.

With a smaller cohort, and women turning a blind eye pretty much, it was kind of ok.

Then comes transgender, stonewall, self ID. And women go hold on a fucking minute.

And the only response is to push back on the whole lot.

That's not our fault. Talk to stonewall. And the individuals who have been working on getting things changed quietly in the background for years.

Rapists in women's prisons
Males in women's sport
Self id into changing rooms
Kick boxing rugby etc saying twaw no problem

It's a hard no now. Not our fault. Not suddenly being mean. Reacting to a massive breach of the social contract, the changes being made at speed to everything we needed -our words even.

No. That's that.

^Entirely agree, sadly

NiceGerbil · 25/05/2021 00:16

'The GC' sounds kind of good though. Like the Borg or something.

That post is really interesting.

I'd be very surprised if I'm being used by the Tories to 'eliminate' transgender people. Firstly because I have never felt the desire to eliminate anyone. And secondly because I hate the Tories.

However no doubt I'm a malleable housewife or something so whatever.

Out of interest. How does saying eg rugby should be sex segregated eliminate anyone?

NiceGerbil · 25/05/2021 00:12

What does a bit of added extra in 16 mean?

And really interesting to see this thread used to try to guilt/ persuade/ 'wrong side of history' by one trans person against another trans person.

'When the right wing have used the GC to eliminate TG they will come for you too. There's nowhere to hide and and they hate you no less than they hate me. Perhaps you're useful for now but don't kid yourself that's out of love'

Useful to who for what?
Why would the Tories want to eliminate trans people? It includes cross dressing right? This is the Tories we're talking about!

Swipe left for the next trending thread