Drag and misogyny

What have I made up.

You have said that one female comedian joking about her own body is worse than a whole load of blokes joking about women's bodies as a standard thing.

. I did not say anything of the things you or NiceGerbil attributed to me , or more accurately made up.

Nobody has made straw man arguments, you've come with no compelling case to back up why you are saying that, you've answered none of the points raised to you

Exactly ! None of the points raised have been answered because there can be no justification for drag. Drag is misogynistic to its core. It is based on the degradation of women by a group of men using it to get back at other men

This is a massive and bonkers diversion!

Quite entertaining though!

Loads of women on here make self deprecating jokes about problems they're having with their groin zone.

More than once I've seen women saying summer is coming omg my pubes look like spider legs coming halfway to my knees!

So that is worse than a man dressing up in a bikini and putting loads of thick hair down his legs and then setting a comedy routine around how it's awful and needs gone...

Yes that makes perfect sense to me.

All the women who joke on here about things they feel about their own bodies are not just worse than men making similar jokes about women's bodies. But in fact they are actively encouraging it and supporting misogyny.

The way to get rid of men being crass about women's bodies then is to never ever talk about our own problems/ observations in a light hearted way.

Super.

Another straw man- you'll soon have a field of scarecrows.

You know what, if you're just going to keep saying that instead of answering anyone's questions then it's just a waste of time anyone responding to you.

Nobody has made straw man arguments, you've come with no compelling case to back up why you are saying that, you've answered none of the points raised to you.

You are convinced you are out smarting everyone when in reality you are making yourself look a fool.

Yes, it’s an ugly parody of women. “Women - this is you, the way you look, speak and walk is ridiculous and repulsive, let’s all laugh at you”.

My thoughts exactly.

A person making a joke about themselves and their body (even if it's in poor taste and crass) is totally different to the mass mocking of an oppressed group by a group that hold power, especially when society is apparently meant to welcome and celebrate the mocking because the unpleasant ridicule is actually super progressive don'tyaknow.

I’m starting to get quite annoyed by the double standards and hypocrisy currently being touted as “kind”

The rule is don’t make fun of people who are in a historically oppressed group, especially if you belong to the oppressive group... unless that oppressed group is women. Then continue.

I know many people who are on board with veganism, only buy fair trade bananas etc. and love to lecture people about those choices. However, come the weekend they’ll happily shove white powder up their nose without a second thought to the chain of human suffering and exploitation that it’s taken to get it in that plastic bag and the horrific abuse that it goes towards funding.

I don’t understand how people who claim to care about other human beings have such huge blinds spots when it suits them and even worse, refuse to even acknowledge these blind spots.

Hmm. The girl who lost here college place in the US for dropping that word in a car comes to mind. It was ostensibly 'banter' but it's use was historically used in a derogatory and dehumanising way. A word that is now been taken back and 'owned' by the group in question as a means to take back power of it. Others using it is seen as inappropriate and indeed hateful. White girl had her college offer rescinded.

So, if I used that word, it would be called out as I am not the cohort it was used against as a derogatory and hateful term. Yet some black people maintain that their use of it is acceptable as they are the people it was directed against.

Similarly, one could compare men going on about women's parts by a group that are effectively punching down as they are the ones that denied/deny women equal status in public life and participation therein. Or make it very uncomfortable as women still have to put up with the 'banter' of men talking about them as smelly fish, bitches etc. All banter too and you obviously cannot take a joke by these fun men. Right.

If I kept 'joking' about smelly foreskin smegma and had a fake set of male 'in your face' genitals I kept hoisting, it would be come across as unbalanced and deranged.

I think those men are saying that at least they are not actual women and they can punch down. They're making it clear they are not the bottom of the pile. The biological fshy btches are.

If that's to me, yes. Why should women complain about drag artists talking about fish - here's this idiotic woman validating them.

For the reasons everyone else has already said over and over again. Because one person making jokes about herself is not anywhere near in the same league as men, who have oppressed women for centuries, making jokes at our expense.

When are you going to address that?

You keep talking about apologists but you are clearly the apologist here. You are shifting the focus totally away from the men that do this, to focus on one woman that does this and call her worse when she is both much smaller than the huge culture of men doing this and also blatantly NOT worse in terms of what she is saying.

Some might find this an interesting read

www.stylist.co.uk/long-reads/drag-king-female-entertainer-male-impersonator-vesta-tilley-drag-queens/330986

MissBarbary

I don't like her vagina jokes either. I find many of her jokes not funny. However, she is not making them about anyone else's body, just her own. She is not oppressing a more oppressed group of people making a joke about her body. If she was making jokes and referencing other people's or a group of other people's vaginas, maybe the comparison would be relevant.

I am pointing out the difference between her jokes about 'her' vagina and when it is allowed by society to continue for a group of males to continue to denigrate females.

And yes. This is my opinion, and obviously it doesn't agree with yours and I have stated quite clearly why.

Oh and by the way I've no ides what your last paragraph is supposed to mean. It seems another attempt to create a strawman.

To make it clear I am as unimpressed by one of the "oppressed class" doing this as one of the "oppressor class" . I'm equally unimpressed by members of the ^oppressed class" making feeble excuses for such behaviour.

It's interesting to me that Victoria Wood (who I love) is popular with gay men, who seem to like the campness and the downtrodden or trashy female characters. Victoria Wood was very much a woman's woman and may not have necessarily written for a female audience, but certainly wrote strong female characters and blew the lid off the reality of everyday life for ordinary women. I sometimes see drag attempting to recreate these kind of characters, but getting it horribly wrong and ending up being completely misogynistic. Why is that - because they're laughing at us and not with us? Drag characters often end up simply being grotesque rather than having the warmth of Victoria Wood's characters, which is surely something to do with the way these men see us, as something grotesque rather than to be empathised with.

And even more bizarrely, you see it as worse.

In your opinion. I don't want people like Schumer peddling nonsense about smelly vaginas and I don't like apologists making feeble excuses for such nonsense.

I don't like male apologists detracting from a huge, mainstream movement by an oppressive group of people, in order to focus on one woman making similar jokes.

Interestingly, turning the jokes your oppressor makes about you into a caricature to get back at them is exactly the defence that is given for what drag acts do. And yet when Schumer does it, even though she's specifically talking about herself, you see it as unacceptable.

*honing

Tibtom "That fact that it was performed in gay clubs simply meant that that misogyny was allowed to develop and no women were present to hold them accountable."
I agree with this. I also think that any criticism of drag by women would be met with a vicious response from gay men, which is really a sign of entitlement. For me though, I'm not someone who likes censorship, so I'm trying to think if there's a way that drag could be more acceptable by not being so misogynistic. I never had problems with some of the older, mainstream drag acts like Dame Edna, Pauline Calf and Lily Savage, for example, but then these are actual comedians, so I think therein lies the difference: they actually consider the response of women in their audience when homing their material.