Drag and misogyny

MissBarbary - I think you’re getting tied up in knots, because while you think it’s worse for women to joke about their own bodies than for men to do it, you clearly very much do not apply that same rule to other groups.

It’s a blatant double standard, that erodes your credibility.

Well said @lolasmiles. I couldn't care less if men wear make-up and dresses. What I do care about the degradation of women and the fact we're meant to be complicit in the trope of 'it's only a bit of fun!'

HeyManIJustWantSomeMuesli
That's what some of us are getting at.
If a man wants to wear frocks, makeup, heels and do a glitzy performance, them I couldn't care less. There's some amazing male dancers who choreograph music videos and and lead dance workshops, all in heels. They're good to watch and very talented when you see how they teach others.

The issue isn't just men doing glitzy performances and embracing their more (stereotypically) feminine side/performing in a way that challenges masculine stereotypes and embraces effeminate manhood. It's that for a lot of men in the drag scene it isn't enough to put on a dress and perform; their whole act is based on punching down, degrading women. Unfortunately some posters on this thread seem to think that challenging the misogyny is a sign that feminists promote stereotypes, are homophobic and need to listen to men.

My apologies Miss Barbary, so would you agree with me that drag is based on misogyny and has no place in a civilised society, where it should no longer be acceptable for more powerful groups to mock and humiliate more vulnerable groups.

*Where on earth have I said there is any justification for drag? Please point to the posts justifying it? Or where I have said it is acceptable?

You can't - because I didn't say that either.*

But you did say that women doing it is worse, which is being an apologist for men, which I assume is the part you think I am making up?

So women should not joke about own own bodies because it's a green light to men to make similar jokes much more frequently. And it's worse when the women do it.

For everything else, jokes made by outsiders are appalling and totally different to people making them about themselves which is fine.

You either think women should following different rules to everyone else (so what's new) or can't see that you're demanding different standards for women at all.

Why do you hold women up to tougher scrutiny than you do other oppressed groups?

And NiceGerbil I did report your now deleted post with your despicable invention of yours saying I said it was OK for white men to make jokes similar to those on GGM.

You can't - because I didn't say that either.

So Miss Barbary what is your justification for drag? Why do you not think it is misogynistic to its core? What makes it acceptable for a more powerful group( men) to mock a weaker group ( women)? Are women not worthy of the same respect as disabled people for example?

NiceGerbil this is what I said

There is no comparison whatsoever with the Goodness Gracious Me or Gimme, Gimme, Gimme team making rather gentle comedy against themselves out of stereotypes which have an element of truth in them and the nonsense quoted on here by Amy Schumer

How dare you twist that into saying I said that it would be ok for white men to make the jokes made on goodness gracious me

That is an invention of yours and you are basically calling me a racist.

I said that it was fine for the GGM team to make jokes about themselves.

The idea that groups who experience issues with stuff in life must not use humour about themselves. Even though it's a way of defusing situations/ getting people to stop asking difficult questions/ and for many joking about it has an effect of making you feel a bit better for many.

They must not joke at all. And be four and serious and humourless about any and all of it.

Because that gives the green light apparently for people outside that group to mock and belittle them.

It's a compelling argument!

Also why as a disabled person if I joke about my own disability that's worse than what you describe, and in fact is giving permission and supporting them doing it.

@MissBarbary What have I supposedly made up, then?

People haven't been making things up from what I can see, they've been trying to figure out what your argument is by suggesting possibilities to you, while you ignore them and say "straw man" over and over again. Not really the same thing.

Could Miss Barbary explain why it would be offensive and totally unacceptable for an able bodied person to pretend to be a person with cerebral palsy and make nasty jokes about this disability but not equally offensive for a male person to pretend to be a women and make horrible jokes about the stench from the female genitals? Are women such a sub class that we are not worthy of respect?

To those saying make-up and high heeled shoes aren't inherently female/for women: although I agree that men can/should be 'allowed' to wear heels, make-up, dresses etc off they want to, the whole point of drag artists wearing those things is to appear to be, although in an OTT/cartoonish way, women do your point makes no sense. I
don't think anyone should be comparing a man who happens to be wearing eyeliner/a pencil skirt/wedge shoes with a drag artist.

parody
/ˈparədi/
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noun
an imitation of the style of a particular writer, artist, or genre with deliberate exaggeration for comic effect.
"the film is a parody of the horror genre"
Similar:
satire
burlesque
lampoon
pastiche
caricature
take-off
skit
imitation
mockery
spoof
send-up
pappyshow
pasquinade
pasticcio
vulgar slangpiss-take
verb
produce a humorously exaggerated imitation of (a writer, artist, or genre).

Today 03:40NiceGerbil

Today 03:53NiceGerbil

You would honestly be ok with white men joking about stereotypes and playing up to them in the same way as is done in goodness gracious me?

And a straight man performing a gay man as on gimme gimme and a man making jokes about the woman as portrayed on gimme?

You wouldn't see that as racist/ homophobic/ misogynist?

I think that's s really unusual view but obviously it's yours and so that's how it is.

I'm not sure who Amy Schumer is, and I'm not really interested in finding out.

I can't really get my head around the idea that some woman being horrible about herself is worse than other people being horrible about her. Is it about feeling betrayed when a woman does it? I suppose I can see that?

I don't agree that members of x group being horrible about themselves/being self-deprecating gives outsiders a licence to also be horrible in the same way. I think this is a fairly simple social norm. If I walk into a pub and hear a group of male friends at a table calling each other some pejorative name about a shared feature, I don't saunter over and feel entitled to join in! Anyone who uses this excuse is being disingenuous, unless they would really, genuinely saunter up to a unknown group of large ex-rugby players they'd overheard calling each other derogatory names, and attempt to join in on it.

If you understand the social rule when a group of large, tough men is involved, then you understand the rule, and you should follow it even when there is no risk to your health.

She's not making fun of herself. She's parodying the stupid joke.

Ok MissBarbary

We must all be very stupid.

Could you please explain to us, clearly and simply, one last time...

Why is it worse for someone to make fun of themselves and their own personal body/ situation, than for someone from an oppressive class to make fun of people from the oppressed class?

Please try to use a different group of oppressed vs oppressive to highlight this difference, I.e race, disability, sexuality so that we can understand the equivalence.

Thank you 😊

Surely Amy is parodying the drag/make trope that women smell with that hyped up extreme ridiculous description. That's my reading.