Drag and misogyny

I have only come to realise how deeply woman-hating drag is in the last few years. I have never been comfortable with it but self-censored myself to the point where I ignored my gut instinct. The current bombardment of drag from the BBC is concerning. It normalises highly prejudicial stereotypes of women - as if we don't have enough going on just now.

Are you happy for the lie about "white men" to stand?

It wasn’t a lie, it was an assumption based on your attitude towards women as an oppressed class being unable to joke about themselves and make fun of their sexist assumptions made about them.

The point is, Barbary, that people from an oppressed group can make fun of themselves but people from the group who oppresses those people cannot make fun of them.
You seem to agree with this with the exception of women.
You have not answered why this is, despite being asked multiple times.

I find Amy Schumer's remarks offensive because why complain about drag acts if you're happy for this woman to validate what they say.

Are you happy for the lie about "white men" to stand?

To be fair 334bu MissBarbary said this way back up the thread.

I don't find drag paricularly offensive but I'm mystified about what the point is.

Yet finds Amy Schumer particularly offensive, it seems.

I wonder MsBarbary would you also condemn all men parodying women ?

[quote aSofaNearYou]**@nicegerbil. I was so angry at your smears I deregistered. Whilst I didn't expect an apology for your twisting I didn't expect you would double up on your lie. i repeat what I said -it was fine for the GGM team to joke about themselves. I said I thought Schumer's stupid comment validates fish comments which could be potentially worse. here's what I did not say "You said that making jokes about your own group/ situation is worse than outsiders doing it." I only mentioned Schumer- not all groups. Even if I had said that, which I didn't, I absolutely did not say it was OK for white men to make the sort of jokes the GMM team make. It is only your nasty twisting of it to come up with that interpretation. I re-registered briefly to post this. Carry on making up lies as after this I'm out.

It's quite impressive to make a post saying how shocked and appalled you are at someone making up something about you, whilst confirming the thing they said about you. You've literally just agreed that you said a woman doing it is worse than men doing it. People have asked if you apply this to other groups, and according to this response apparently not, just women like Schumer doing it. So you did say exactly what people are saying you did. Why are you so offended by that?[/quote]
How hard is it for you? I was shocked at NiceGerbil's lie that I am supposed to have said it was OK for white men to make the same sort of jokes the GGM team do. I said exactly the opposite.

I did not mention all groups I specifically mentioned Schumer. Even if I had mentioned all groups that still doesn't translate into NiceGerbil's malicious "interpretation' that it means white men can make the sort of jokes made on GMM.

What is culturally common to all women is the discrimination we face at the hands of men. Therefore , for a group of men to culturally appropriate and parody the stereotypical view of women in their culture ,in order to hit out at other men, is truly misogynistic. How better to get your own back on somebody " bigger and stronger than you" than by hitting out at "somebody smaller and weaker than you" . Drag is the epitome of bullying misogyny

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken yes, that's my point, thank you

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@pigeonpies
But I don’t think woman culture can exist at all because it’s really meant as a unisex/sex neutral umbrella term? Culture is defined as the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group. There isn’t any of this that is common to all women?[/quote]
I don’t think there are any races or religions who all share the exact same customary beliefs, social norms, and material traits either.

I understand pigeon’s point. She’s saying that an oppressed group being mocked for their traditional clothing choices by the oppressive group in the form of appropriating it is not on.

@nicegerbil. I was so angry at your smears I deregistered. Whilst I didn't expect an apology for your twisting I didn't expect you would double up on your lie. i repeat what I said -it was fine for the GGM team to joke about themselves. I said I thought Schumer's stupid comment validates fish comments which could be potentially worse. here's what I did not say "You said that making jokes about your own group/ situation is worse than outsiders doing it." I only mentioned Schumer- not all groups. Even if I had said that, which I didn't, I absolutely did not say it was OK for white men to make the sort of jokes the GMM team make. It is only your nasty twisting of it to come up with that interpretation. I re-registered briefly to post this. Carry on making up lies as after this I'm out.

It's quite impressive to make a post saying how shocked and appalled you are at someone making up something about you, whilst confirming the thing they said about you. You've literally just agreed that you said a woman doing it is worse than men doing it. People have asked if you apply this to other groups, and according to this response apparently not, just women like Schumer doing it. So you did say exactly what people are saying you did. Why are you so offended by that?

I think the thing with drag though is that it isn't how you define yourself personally it's how others see you ( generic female )

I particularly dislike having naff female stereotypes used when they are not true about me yet are routinely used to justify discrimination ( bubble headed female that I am )

@NiceGerbil

But you did say that

You said that making jokes about your own group/ situation is worse than outsiders doing it.

Or do you mean only if it's jokes about women's bodies but it's different for everything else?

i repeat what I said -it was fine for the GGM team to joke about themselves. I said I thought Schumer's stupid comment validates fish comments which could be potentially worse.

here's what I did not say

"You said that making jokes about your own group/ situation is worse than outsiders doing it." I only mentioned Schumer- not all groups.

Even if I had said that, which I didn't, I absolutely did not say it was OK for white men to make the sort of jokes the GMM team make. It is only your nasty twisting of it to come up with that interpretation.

I re-registered briefly to post this. Carry on making up lies as after this I'm out.

I don't understand that ,

there is no culture as there is nothing that's true of all humans ?

@pigeonpies
But I don’t think woman culture can exist at all because it’s really meant as a unisex/sex neutral umbrella term? Culture is defined as the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group. There isn’t any of this that is common to all women?

And I'm not saying that the only thing cultural about women is how they dress! It's just one aspect that drags have chosen to use.

As a women, I am not defined just by how I look, there is plenty more I consider to be part of my culture.

@NiceGerbil the same way it's cultural appropriation when a person wears something traditionally worn by another culture ( usually one that's been historically oppressed!)

Clothing and fashion fall under cultural appropriation, as does dance, music religious symbols, hairstyling ( Kim Kardashian and cornrows debate)

No, breasts are not cultural, they are part of the human body I grew, just like the colour of my skin and the natural state of my hair. And I recognise not all women wear makeup and dresses ( sits here in joggers and moisturiser) but those thing are identifiably 'female' even if we don't like it.

Like I said, if drags didn't wear the dresses and heels and make up then their act wouldn't work. They are using the culture of woman's fashion. The fake breasts used to emulate a body part I have no control over growing

[quote pigeonpies]@PlanDeRaccordement it's still women's culture today though, even if it was forced upon us. The drags are impersonating that, if they didn't put on the makeup and dresses it wouldn't work for them. [/quote]
I just disagree. Woman Culture implies values and traditions of importance that women hold in common. Makeup, dresses and stilettos are not culture in my opinion. I think @NiceGerbil has it nail on head by saying it is fashion.

There seems to be confusion between culture and fashion here

Loads of dress type garments have been worn around the world forever

Ok they don't look like the ones drag queens wear but still

Breasts aren't cultural

It's not cultural appropriation and really it's peculiar to say so. Also suggests that women want it and like it and it's of deep significance to us. 9 inch heels? Um.

Strange turn this thread has taken!

And by culture I do mean the culture of wearing makeup and dresses and high heels and anything else you associate with being a women. That's my culture and drags are appropriating it for their gain and as a women I am ultimately the butt of their jokes

It's not my culture. My culture is wearing comfy clothes, striving to be the best as I possibly can in an intellectual sense, swearing and drinking whisky.

Oddly, that's seen as being at odds with being a woman and whereas those who are 'binary' and 'gender fluid' are showered with accolades those of us who desire to expand the bandwidth of being a woman in a direction that does not give men boners or the benefit of our sexual, reproductive or domestic labour are derided. Of course, modern drag also sends up the culture that has been imposed on us.

@PlanDeRaccordement it's still women's culture today though, even if it was forced upon us. The drags are impersonating that, if they didn't put on the makeup and dresses it wouldn't work for them.

And by culture I do mean the culture of wearing makeup and dresses and high heels and anything else you associate with being a women. That's my culture

That’s not woman culture that we created for ourselves. High heels and makeup we appropriated from men centuries ago. And dresses we were forced to wear by the patriarchy.

I often don't wear that stuff. It still pissed me off.

Having breasts isn't cultural.

To me it's a caricature and a piss take.

Men whoever they are, have often been keen on lampooning us, portraying us as grotesque.

My dad and I'm sure many other straight men found Cupid stunt hilarious back in the day.

It's cultural appropriation, by a patriarchy who have oppressed women for eons. Women are killed and raped at an alarming and disproportionate rate, by men. Violence, sexual assault, systematic sexism and misogyny, sexual harassment. The perpetrator almost always being male.

And by culture I do mean the culture of wearing makeup and dresses and high heels and anything else you associate with being a women. That's my culture and drags are appropriating it for their gain and as a women I am ultimately the butt of their jokes.