Drag and misogyny

Thanks Soapboxfox, still have no idea why someone would use it in the context they did. But I appreciate the clarification.

'Ooh Matron' was Kenneth Williams' catchphrase in the Carry On films when something risqué was going on.

1. "Are you saying that a drag performer who included misogynistic material in their show is not to blame for the content they are performing? And because they are out there having a good time, it is ok?"

‘No, if they make a directly misogynistic remark, that would be their personal responsibility (although I assume our interpretations of what constitutes misogyny differ). I take issue with the idea that drag itself is inherently misogynistic and so anyone doing drag is a misogynist.’

2. "And again I ask, because I have yet to get any answer."

Ooh, matron!

3. "What are drag performers who understand that there is a great deal of misogyny in their genre doing about this? Which ones are publicly speaking out? I have not seen one, is there someone I should be looking for?"*

‘Like saying, "What women are speaking out in favour of fathers who don't get to see their children as often as they'd like?" That's what you're doing.’

’It would be nice to see a drag queens speaking out against misogyny. But to be honest, they've got enough to speak out against.’

I did ask for further clarification but got nothing. I asked what the fuck was the weird matron reference and refuted the false equivalence they drew. And then I asked when would be a good time for performers in that genre of entertainment to deal with the fact that they, or if not them individually, their colleagues, are perpetuating hate against women?

Maybe they, or someone else will actually answer. But it seems those performers who see the misogyny are too busy making money from the genre and/or having fun to be worried about addressing it.

Who gave that answer?!!

Even if we say NADQALT, there's still a huge elephant in the room: if NADQALT then why does the good, non-misogynistic majority stand by and laugh at the 'few' rotten apples? If misogyny is rare then why does it go unchecked with worrying regularly?

We received an answer (of a rather weak type) to this. We are told that gay men who perform are too busy standing up for things like HIV awareness etc. The ones who recognize it as misogynistic are too busy standing for other good causes to do anything about making positive changes to the genre they benefit from.

I don't appreciate, and will never appreciate, demeaning jokes about women's genitals and the sort of misogynistic content that occurs with worrying regularly.

Even if we say NADQALT, there's still a huge elephant in the room: if NADQALT then why does the good, non-misogynistic majority stand by and laugh at the 'few' rotten apples? If misogyny is rare then why does it go unchecked with worrying regularly?

This.

It is mocking a group of people (women) for an immutable physical characteristic we share. It is not okay!

The cultural appropriation thing is a hard no from me.

It's for things that are of deep deep significance to very distinct groups.

Trying to think of an example of cultural appropriation of women in England.

Maybe when our long held cultural role of being the people in society who delivered the babies was stolen from us. With disastrous results in death rates.

That sort of thing.

To say it's about fashion really trivialises the idea of what cultural appropriation is an objection to. How I feel about it myself is a different topic. Is the intent to really anger people who feel strongly about aspects of their culture being taken, aspects of massive significance including religious or custom, and liken it to makeup?

And I don't give two shits if men wear dresses and makeup etc. Kurt Cobain looked awesome in his frock as did Nicky wire.

So can we get back to the main point and away from this diversion which many will see as frankly racist.

Nobody is saying it's aspirational. They're saying the portrayals are derogatory with unacceptable regularity. I can appreciate the artistry etc of some of the looks but the "Fishy" type jokes cross a line and are not appropriately called out for it.
Well said.
I appreciate the artistry of some of the costumes. I appreciate the talents and performance of men who can dance in heels with style.

I don't appreciate, and will never appreciate, demeaning jokes about women's genitals and the sort of misogynistic content that occurs with worrying regularly.

Even if we say NADQALT, there's still a huge elephant in the room: if NADQALT then why does the good, non-misogynistic majority stand by and laugh at the 'few' rotten apples? If misogyny is rare then why does it go unchecked with worrying regularly?

No women is meant to watch drag and wish she looked like a 6ft bloke in a blond wig and lipstick.

And no black person was meant to look at the minstrels and wish they looked like a Caucasian with boot polish rubbed all over their face.

Every single argument (read: justification) you make in favour of drag was also made in favour (read: justification) of the minstrels.

I’ve been to many drag shows and they are most often aspirational or tributes not derogatory.

They’re not ‘aspirational’ if you find them derogatory. They’re derogatory.

And ‘most often’? So sometimes they’re not?

I don’t think that is the case. Drag has its own stereotype of being larger than life, it is more cartoon character than attempts to portray real women. No women is meant to watch drag and wish she looked like a 6ft bloke in a blond wig and lipstick. You’re just meant to appreciate the artistry, the act (usually singing or comedy is involved) and the crazy fashion ideas.

Stop telling people what they can and can’t say - and what they can and can’t find offensive @PlanDeRaccordement.

The black and white minstrels were meant to be a cartoon, jokey mimicry of a black people. It was meant to be entertainment.

I don’t want to, and I quote, ‘appreciate the artistry, the act [...] and the crazy fashion ideas’ of drag, thanks very much.

Oh, ‘usually singing or comedy is involved’? Is it? Thanks for the explanation - do you think people have been living under a rock? ‘Singing and comedy’ - well, that makes it so much better.

The singing and comedy didn’t make the minstrels any more entertaining, either.

No women are traditionally not seen as human, that's why women could be given away . They were historically owned and lesser than men

and that is still true today which is why when things are designed for people they are designed for men

And that's why women often feel as if they are portrayed as meat not human ,

when a man ogles it's because they see you as a sex object not a valid human like themselves

You see it as aspirational
Others find it insulting

@aSofaNearYou
Nobody is saying it's aspirational. They're saying the portrayals are derogatory with unacceptable regularity.

I’ve been to many drag shows and they are most often aspirational or tributes not derogatory.

I don’t think that is the case. Drag has its own stereotype of being larger than life, it is more cartoon character than attempts to portray real women. No women is meant to watch drag and wish she looked like a 6ft bloke in a blond wig and lipstick. You’re just meant to appreciate the artistry, the act (usually singing or comedy is involved) and the crazy fashion ideas.

Nobody is saying it's aspirational. They're saying the portrayals are derogatory with unacceptable regularity. I can appreciate the artistry etc of some of the looks but the "Fishy" type jokes cross a line and are not appropriately called out for it.

Do the parallels between black face and drag make you feel uncomfortable?

Well I am sure you were just meant to appreciate the singing of the black and white minstrels

The current bombardment of drag from the BBC is concerning. It normalises highly prejudicial stereotypes of women

I don’t think that is the case. Drag has its own stereotype of being larger than life, it is more cartoon character than attempts to portray real women. No women is meant to watch drag and wish she looked like a 6ft bloke in a blond wig and lipstick. You’re just meant to appreciate the artistry, the act (usually singing or comedy is involved) and the crazy fashion ideas.

I am getting really tired of this thread appropriating racism to make debate points, please stop conflating men dressing up like women with blackface or yellowface. It keeps being put out there as comparable/the same as and it really isn’t.

Power disparity
Women cross dressing isn’t funny in the same way as men in drag is meant to be because men have more power. It’s always less insulting to mock up than to mock down.

White people blacking up is insulting because of the power imbalance and reinforcement of insulting stereotypes

Men in drag is the same - men appropriating and reaffirming harmful stereotypes of the less powerful (women)

I don’t see any diffrrrence - I hate drag. It feels women hating

It's quite impressive to make a post saying how shocked and appalled you are at someone making up something about you, whilst confirming the thing they said about you. You've literally just agreed that you said a woman doing it is worse than men doing it. People have asked if you apply this to other groups, and according to this response apparently not, just women like Schumer doing it. So you did say exactly what people are saying you did. Why are you so offended by that?

Agree.

@MsBarbaryBriefly you seem to be really struggling to grasp people explaining the blatant double standard you are applying.

You think it’s worse when women make fun of themselves, than when men do it.

But you don’t then apply that same rule to racism. You think it’s worse for white people to makes jokes about black people.

Why?

Going by your logic, it should be worse for a black person to make a joke about themselves. In other words, preferable for a white person to do it.

*I said that I don't particularly find drag offensive. I don't understand what the point is.

I find Amy Schumer's remarks offensive because why complain about drag acts if you're happy for this woman to validate what they say.

Are you happy for the lie about "white men" to stand?*

That makes zero sense. You aren't offended by drag and yet find a woman saying things that are at most middling in terms of how crude they are on the scale of things drag acts say, offensive?

You are flat out refusing to see the massive double standard in what you are saying, whilst being mortally offended by someone asking if you apply the same logic when the subject is racism rather than misogyny.

This is internalised misogyny, there's nothing else to call it.

I said that I don't particularly find drag offensive. I don't understand what the point is.

I find Amy Schumer's remarks offensive because why complain about drag acts if you're happy for this woman to validate what they say.

Can you tell us again, why are you more offended by one woman discussing HER vagina's condition, than you are about drag.

Because you don't particularly find drag offensive... Yet, you are very clear about your feelings about a woman describing HER vagina. Not anyone else's or making any remark that other people's vaginas smell that way. In fact, she implies that from the smell there is something unhealthy in that smell.

Your reaction here is that it is more offensive than males stating that a healthy vagina smells of fish, take on misogynistic names (even of a child who was abused and murdered), and parody females in so many other ways, which you state you are not particularly offended by.

Why?

I agree with you MsBarbary in some respects - not all, as I hate drag and the BBC's promotion of it. I don't know who Amy Schumer is but that's nasty stuff and not a joke, even an unfunny one, so yes, I see where you are coming from. I hope you don't leave because of this but it would be understandable.