Drag and misogyny

I think the massive inherent misogyny of drag can be discussed without that comparison.

Make up and dresses. No. Tits though? Going with a yes.

I grew up with Leslie Dawson hooking his bosom, Monty python playing female stereotypes for laughs. Kenny Everett- Cupid stunt. With the massive tits and the leg spreading.

I also never liked panto.

I was too young to look into why I felt this way. But the hilarious men dressed as women for laughs thing always made me really uncomfortable.

Yes of course it's a caricature of stereotypes of women. On the gay male scene ok a lot of history and subversiveness etc.

Note though that the look is usually a certain way.

Note that stereotypical negative female traits are a big thing.

More recently. On s thread someone mentioned a queen called Cheryl hole. How fucking disrespectful. The actual Cheryl. The one whose name has been turned to Cunt by a man. Laughed I think? What else could she do? And does that make it ok?

Cheryl hole FFS. Hilarious!

It's misogynist shit. Gay scene fine. Mainstream? No. Back to the 70s. Little girls sitting there thinking everyone is laughing and it's on the telly so it must be ok but. Why don't I like it?

But hey as long as some are fishy it's all cool I suppose.

I've always found it "creepy" if I'm honest.

Even as a pre-teen I watched "performances" by the likes of Danny La Rue and in later years by Lily Savage and found them uncomfortable viewing.

I could never at the time describe why.

Now I "get it".

It's not the "over pretending" to be female that "gets" me.

It's the use of stereotypical female tropes and worse offensive "banter" that pisses me off that trivialises womanhood.

You go to see shows where you often have to complain about the misogyny used? I wouldn't go to see a show or comedian where it is likely that they are going to misogynistic in the same way that I wouldn't go to see a show where the performer is likely to make derisive comments about other minorities or oppressed groups.

Women are mocked and abused for gender-conforming presentation and behaviour, dumb blonde airheads, Karens, crazy cat ladies, soccer moms, blue-rinsed brigades, Kardashian-wannabes, Valley/Essex girl sluts, frigid bitches, bunny boilers, etc. There was even a derogatory term for straight women who had lots of gay male friends.
To take stereotypes of women and create an art form from mocking them is not something I’m inclined to celebrate, regardless of the sexuality of the male performer.

It depends, I think. Old style drag certainly has misogynistic undertones to me - the cartoonishly large fake boobs, cartoonishly overdone make-up & nails etc. It makes me think that they're laughing at women, especially older, larger women. On the other hand some aspects of more stylish drag, when it's a man expressing his style in a flamboyant way, can be really stunning e.g. thinking about how amazing Billy Porter looks at the Oscars.

Done well, it's a great way for men to express their flamboyant side, something men rarely get to do due to boring dress standards. Done badly, it's horribly misogynistic and offensive.

I think there is a vast difference between merely dressing/grooming in a feminine way and what the drag scene does. It's just so mean-spirited towards women. The jokes, the names, the deliberate exaggerations, all set on lampooning women and female/feminine culture (and duh not all women are feminine but that doesn't diminish the intention).

I don't buy the 'just mocking the abuse we get' angle because they themselves are mocking an oppressed class in response. I don't mind having a laugh but in drag our bodies and our experiences are routinely the butt of the joke, and if it was any other minority or oppressed group that an entire comedic culture rested on ridiculing then society would rightly be outraged.

And that’s why I call it out in shows... not all drag is misogynistic, if I hear anything bad I make a complaint. Particularly the new generation aren’t like that. How many shows do you go to typically?

I don't want to hear slurs about anyone's genitalia

This. This is my point. Women don't want to hear the slurs about their genitalia as used routinely in drag. Because its misogynistic.

Waitwhat23 I’m not going to support misandry or misogyny, so what’s your point? I don’t want to hear slurs about anyone’s genitalia, it’s not some gross tit for tat

but people don’t tend to shout abuse at or try to beat up gender-conforming women.

You're joking, right?

It seems the drag king equivalent of 'fishy' which is 'beef' or 'beefy' doesn't have anything to do with the smell of male genitalia. But the female equivalent does, with its connotations of shaming women. How strange.

Cross posted with @Backstreetsbackalrightdadada who said basically what I was trying to but much more succinctly and less waffly lol

Why would being effeminate be a bad thing, if being female was seen as a good and equal thing

I think you're conflating two things there
as in the way women are treated and men and toxic masculinity.
Just because a lot of men have a problem with effeminate ones, doesn't mean that queens must be doing it because they don't like women or femininity and are doing it to take the piss.
Maybe, as a lot of people do, they're just expressing themselves.

They’re celebrating the “effeminate” and “other”, not saying it’s a bad thing. This is despite any abuse they receive, it’s not about celebrating and upholding their abusers it’s about sticking it to gender norms. At least that’s the drag I go to

And while being a man is not viewed in derogatory terms, a woman who is masculine, who has short hair, no makeup, doesn’t shave legs or armpit isn’t admired. The fact of not conforming to expectations brings about abuse on its own.

Drag queens do it to mock the abuse they get for being effeminate.

It shows how women are still viewed. Why would being effeminate be a bad thing, if being female was seen as a good and equal thing? Women receive so much abuse that it is normalised.

[quote Waitwhat23]@Interestedparty132 the only reason I know about the term 'fish' or 'fishy' was because it was referred to on mainstream TV as an example of the terminology used by the drag community so clearly it is widely used.

I can't think of any female comedians who refer to the smell of men's genitals on stage or TV - can you let me know some examples? I assume that drag Kings also use it as part of their act also?[/quote]
Maybe not smell specifically but certainly penis size and ED.

But we’re here saying loads of drag isn’t misogynistic, and you’re saying some has been so it’s all a write off... so what’s the point of this discussion? One difference is I give feedback at gigs, I have told someone their material was bad and they apologised and I would again. But I know loads of gigs are great. I don’t just sit on the internet going “all drag is bad”.

@Interestedparty132 the only reason I know about the term 'fish' or 'fishy' was because it was referred to on mainstream TV as an example of the terminology used by the drag community so clearly it is widely used.

I can't think of any female comedians who refer to the smell of men's genitals on stage or TV - can you let me know some examples? I assume that drag Kings also use it as part of their act also?

And presumably you’d think a woman flattening her breasts and wearing a man’s suit is mocking men? How about old-face for actors who play someone older than they are?

Are women doing this and calling men cheesy? Are we celebrating it as a triumph of art? Lemme just check iPlayer to see the all-female cast of Drag Race, wherein Master Nocturnal Emission has beaten off rigorous competition from Undescended Testicle and Toxic Masculinity for pissing the furthest up a wall.
No, wait, I can’t.