Drag and misogyny

That is horrific Shedbuilder. I am sorry that you experienced that, I am quite lost for words that someone was allowed get away with that.

It used to be considered funny to parody people with speech impediments etc. but fortunately we now know better. So why is it still ok for a group of men to parody women, implying that we are disgusting because our genitals stink , our bodies are saggy etc etc etc. ? Drag is the very epitome of misogyny.

I am not undermining the severity of blackface, but it no longer exists
Just because you don't see it on telly any more, doesn't mean it's gone away.
That's like a toddler putting their hands over their eyes and because they can't see you any more, then you must have disappeared - not being an acceptable mainstream view any more doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Engage with the actual arguement rather than hiding behind other peoples intersectional identities
Oh just wow, lol.
I'd biscuit but I believe that's frowned upon nowadays.

Its presence at Pride has always been a blight. I'm a moderately butch-looking woman and I've been ridiculed by drag queens at Pride and at a pub where I've been celebrating my birthday. Pulled up on stage and made fun of because of the way I look and how I'm dressed. People stood by laughing because drag is funny, isn't it, then came up to me afterwards and apologised because they could see it was a verbal attack and they hadn't know what to do — because who argues with a 7-ft tall drag queen with weightlifter arms?

Just because gay men or lesbian women do certain things doesn't mean that it's all okay. There are limits. The pups aren't okay. Wandering around dressed as a baby isn't okay. Wearing chaps and a sock over your penis is not okay at a public event.

Many lesbian feminists have been quietly distancing themselves from Pride for years because of the misogynistic and paedodophilic undertones. Plenty of gay men are equally as disturbed by it. And I've never, ever, even at drag king events at lesbian-only events heard women talking about gay men with the disgust and contempt that some gay men talk about lesbians. It's misogyny through and through.

I know it's not quite the same argument, but I wanted to bung it in to illustrate the differences in acceptance by the public.

Yes I find it highly offensive

Besides I don't care what sex, race, gender a person is, their argument should be evaluated on it merits not on its standpoint epistemology ranking or the oppression score the identity of the person espousing them holds.

I am not undermining the severity of blackface, but it no longer exists. It isn't acceptable in 2021. Drag is not only accepted it is celebrated.

There are comparisons of kind, if not degree.

Engage with the actual arguement rather than hiding behind other peoples intersectional identities.

Removing the total lack of civil equality in the 1930's/40'/50's, which is not disputed, how is Black face different from drag in and of itself?

Why is dressing as a parody of sex for entertainment, different from dressing as a parody of race for entertainment?

You can see how the show has had to move with the times. Its fans and contestants are very young now and you can see the tedious effect that's had.

Ereshkigalangcleg interestingly British blackface also has roots in the oppression of India during the Empire era and used as a means of stereotyping and subjugating Indians through the portrayal of them as lesser human beings. It's not light hearted by any means. The black minstrel show in the 70s on UK TV draws straight from the US experience through the affectation of jazz personas and fake accents.

All black face performances can be traced back to the presentation of a negative stereotype used to subjugate another race.

Friend listed a clip of his act. The whole gag was around some spray to stop his 'fanny' smelling.
It was repulsive.
How disgusting.

This thread has made me wonder how many drag queens would continue as drag queens if the ability to misogynistically mock women was removed and the focus was on performance value and costumes.

There is a huge difference from a man dressing in sparkles, styling their hair (or wig if they don't have enough), and wearing clothes that in recent times have been typified as feminine and performing dance and songs and the 'drag' that I see on TV now.

The first is in the style of Priscilla, where the men wore bikini tops without faking breasts and wore 'showgirl' clothes is so very different from using derogatory language, having names that are horrific and hateful, and the like.

A lady I vaguely know of did her thesis on it. She too is a participant in much folk, mumming, Border Morris, Molly dancing, etc. I suspect she wanted to find a definitive answer, but didn't and concluded that, given the very long history of black people in Britain, there was an definite element of othering, of 'recognising and diffusing the fear of the stranger' that was, no matter how understandable at the time, racist

Had anyone noticed that the 2May the best woman WIN!" part has now been changed to "may the best DRAG QUEEN WIN!". I wonder if something has changed there

I know that in Drag Race UK it changed from Gentlemen, start your engines, and may the best woman win!
To Racers, start your engine, and may the best drag queen win! because there were some non binary contestants and it changed to be more inclusive for everyone.
So I'm assuming this is the same for the other Drag Race series too.
To be more inclusive.

That's your new generation.

Maybe you just can't see how bad it is?

I can understand that the American experience of blackface is different to that in the U.K., where it was merely what passed for (crass) light entertainment at one point. And so more similar to drag. But I want to be respectful towards black feminists so I don't use it, though I generally don't base everything I say on the American context.

The difference is that women's oppression is lower on the pyramid.

Yes, this exactly. Watch as Drag Race, BLM, transmen in women's spaces etc. are all seen as worth supporting by the same people who think women should know their place. Women's rights last on the list again.

I don't think men wearing stereotypically women's clothing and performing is inherently misogynistic. I think clothes are clothes and if men want to wear make up then they can. If they want to wear sparkly clothes, heels, and make up then fine. If effeminate men want to perform in a way that challenges toxic masculine norms then that's also fine by me.

However, I think elements of the drag scene are very much misogynistic as they're grounded in the mockery of women and their 'acts' seem infused with degrading so called jokes and an unreasonable focus on stereotypes of female sexuality. Some seem less focused on fun costumes and make up, and more focused on parodying a bizarre version of womanhood that's based on sex and being 'sassy'. I also can't stand the fact that so many of the stage names are focused on sex acts or the sexualisation of women.

Yes absolutely. Couldn't agree more

I am tempted to say that only black women are in a good position to judge whether comparing blackface and drag is acceptable.

I don't use the argument for this reason, as some black women find it offensive and there are other ways of expressing the same point. But I'm not particularly convinced by the argument that they are all that different.

I came across this, which puts it well enough:

So, what? The way for an effeminate man to cope was to parody womanhood? In what way is this appropriate now?

It is quite twisted logic. It takes a great deal of pretzeling to say that such a parody of women as an entire genre of entertainment is ok, because it is good for effeminate men to be able to do this (what is the term we see so often 'punch down') I feel. And when women's voices are now getting louder saying that this is not appropriate.... is anyone listening?

It is certainly a parody all right. The parody that discrimination against women is being taken seriously in any way.

Interesting about RuPaul.
Had anyone noticed that the 2May the best woman WIN!" part has now been changed to "may the best DRAG QUEEN WIN!". I wonder if something has changed there. Or maybe it's just because in the last season there was a FTM trans person (biological woman presenting as a gay male presenting as a woman).
Maybe they found the "woman" part offensive.
I DO remember as the previous poster, an interview with RuPaul saying that women could never be drag queens and that they would not be able to compete on his show. So I suppose that times have changed. There have been some previous contestants (I can think of three off the top of my head) who have since come out as trans.
Not sure if that has changed his opinion but its all very confusing.