Drag and misogyny

Of course drag is inherently misogynistic. A group of men, mocked by heterosexual men for being too feminine parody the group that those men are attracted to, emphasising the " grossness" of the female body but nothing misogynistic about it? Aye right

I hate the term "woman face". I can see nothing female in the face of a drag performer not even in a grotesque sense.

I also don't think that drag is inherently misogynistic but it definitely can be. I wouldn't see it banned though and I don't think the comparison to black face is a good one. On the whole I find it boring rather than offensive (I have to admit though I'm not easily offended). They remind me of clowns (mostly dull but sometimes a bit creepy). I definitely think they should be nowhere near schools or libraries though.

Of course it's blatantly misogynistic. But misogyny is so prevalent in our society we've gotten used to it.

But women shouldn't object?

That is the theme of many posts on this thread isn't. Nothing to see here, it is only a few performers that cross the line, and anyway, they need it because they have suffered abuse and oppression....

Oh wait... it is the same argument we see on other topics where women are being silenced or told they are over reacting as well, isn't it?

Yes, to this - that's how I see it, as in expressing themselves and being able to do so safely with others and forming sense of community and bonds with others.

So, they are allowed to express themselves by engaging in derogation of women if they adopt the names, the attitudes and the jokes or, if they as an individual don't do that, they also do absolutely nothing to enact changes so that women are not being parodied in such a way for people's amusement.

Because women are a large group and are used to dealing with being treated that way, they can suck up any discomfort because it helps another group in society to treat women that way. Really?

They're reclaiming something about themselves that they used to be belittled for, and forming a community.

Yes, to this - that's how I see it, as in expressing themselves and being able to do so safely with others and forming sense of community and bonds with others.

I don't know. I just think 'Women v Drag Queens' isn't a fight anyone is going to win. We both suffer because of the same system and we all know what that is
Exactly, patriarchy and toxic masculinity can affect both women and drag queens alike, so don't see how taking offence at drag is helping anyone as surely both are fighting the same thing.....

Drag is part of the patriarchy. A group of men men being mocked for being too feminine punch down at an even more oppressed group saying that they are "better "than us because they at least don't stink!! Typical bullying behaviour.

Aberystwyth University banned drag last September for being offensive to transwomen.

"A universitystudents’ union has banned “drag”-themed parties, claiming the events “make a mockery” oftransgenderpeople.

Students atAberystwythUniversity in Wales have been told not to dress up as the opposite gender for nights out, unless the event is designed to “celebrate” theLGBTcommunity.

Students’ union officials said “drag socials” are "usually about members of random groups dressing up as the opposite gender in a general way that has the intention of being as funny as possible”.

Aberystwyth’s LGBT society, AberPride, said it supported the ban as most student drag nights make "a mockery of trans women and the trans femme experience”.

“Often cisgender (and frequently heterosexual) males will take drag socials as an opportunity to ridicule trans people, and AberPride will not stand by and accept that,” the society told student news site The Tab."

Continues: www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/drag-socials-lgbt-aberystwyth-university-a4540951.html

But women shouldn't object?

They're reclaiming something about themselves that they used to be belittled for, and forming a community.

And they do this by insulting and expressing disgust at another oppressed community — women — in public? And that's okay? So long as the men feel better about themselves it's all okay?

Much of the blatant misogyny exhibited in the 'fishy' references and derogatory names are NOT self deprecating.

Indeed they are not. And if there is more than 'one kind of drag' as people propose, where are all the drag artists who feel that the acts have gone too far into misogyny? Where is their campaign to eradicate the abuse of women from their genre?

Because the horrific names are not done in a way to focus the attention on women's abortion needs, or needs for better safeguarding. These are abusive to women as they are completely derogatory.

Because the reference to women's bodily function by males on mainstream TV as a source of mocking comedy, would not be acceptable to any other group of people.

If people genuinely feel that there are performers who don't fit this profile, where are they working to remove this aspect from their genre?

Or because we are women, and have suffered eons of discrimination and hate that is so well ingrained into society, we have no rights, whereas men who have suffered abuse have got those rights.

Can I blame grammarly for arguement?

I don't like drag, and I don't think it's funny, but I'm a liberal so feel I have to live with it.

I agree with some of what greatauntfanny said. Gay men and women are both groups who get the shitty end of the patriarchy stick. Focusing ire on gay men for problems born of the patriarchy is unlikely to get us any further forward. Similarly, directing anger at so-called handmaids is also getting us nowhere. They're still wrong, though.

I've heard this for a couple of years, and thought about it but I don't feel insulted as a woman. I think an individual drag artist can be misogynistic but so can any man (or woman), I just don't think wearing a dress and make up is inherently misogynistic. Everybody is free to wear what they want IMO both clothing and make up. Particularly make up, watching Strictly made me realise that many men are vastly improved with eye-liner for instance (still feel a bit weak at the memory of Johnny Peacock's tango).

I also don't think of it as woman face, any more than me wearing jeans and a t-shirt and bare face is man face. I have never, ever met a woman in person who looks like that. If anything it's diva-face, they are mostly imitating the style of music stars or particularly glamorous 'celebrities' for instance at the Met Gala or red-carpet events.

I'm appalled at what has happened to Shedbuilder and the drag movement definitely needs to consider the overall attitude and police themselves, but if you somehow banned them from wearing dresses those individuals would still be nasty bastards.

I hate drag with a passion. It is misogynistic.

They're reclaiming something about themselves that they used to be belittled for, and forming a community.

Yes, to this - that's how I see it, as in expressing themselves and being able to do so safely with others and forming sense of community and bonds with others.

I don't know. I just think 'Women v Drag Queens' isn't a fight anyone is going to win. We both suffer because of the same system and we all know what that is
Exactly, patriarchy and toxic masculinity can affect both women and drag queens alike, so don't see how taking offence at drag is helping anyone as surely both are fighting the same thing.....

@Shedbuilder I do agree with what you've said. I've seen drag artists mock women in the audience for looking/acting plain, boring or meek. I don't agree with that part of drag. I also agree there is some misogyny in drag, and in the way gay men view women - butch women especially. I think that should be called out and addressed. I do think however that the view held on here by many that ALL drag is bad and a mockery of women is wrong. It has it's dark side and that should be addressed, but the whole thing shouldn't be shut down because of it, as some here would probably like to see.

Quaggars. If someone attempted blackface, they would be universally denounced and action could and would be taken under civil discrimination law. It is illegal and socially unacceptable. Drag race on the other hand is on primetime TV as we speak .

That is a good point. They are different. I expect there would be a high degree of overlap between people who object to blackface/ drag comparisons and trans racial /transgender comparisons though.

There is something in ridiculing other peoples identity Vs wanting the identity for yourself, I think the former is darker in its motivations and extrapolating that point I suppose blackface was never born out of a place of wanting to be black, where as drag was maybe born more out of the parody and expression of feminine aspect of self (originally) or wanting to be.

On that basis too I agree the comparison falls short.

However blackface is no longer accepted, drag is and there are still overlaps. If the words we use to describe ourselves and our very existence as a political class were not being threatened, if we didn't seem to be regressing in equality to porn addled, gender soaked nonsense, I might be more disposed to thinking it as harmless fun.

Which is if course exactly what the arguements for blackface were when challenged. Harmless fun.

Much of the blatant misogyny exhibited in the 'fishy' references and derogatory names are NOT self depracating.

The drag I used to see at Rugby club Christmas dos growing up, was not coming from a respectful place. It wasn't feminine men expressing that in defiance of an unwelcoming society, it was pure objectification and ridicule with a sprinkling of paraphilia .

334bu It is almost like a group has assumed they are the more oppressed and so can get away with this, isn't it. That it is just another form of male's oppressing females is completely minimised and downplayed. Even on this thread.

I am still waiting for a female comedian example where they refer to others by the smell of their penises, and taking on names mocking men's body parts, bodily functions, reproductive needs, and their murders, assaults etc.

Anyone? Because, if there are female's out there doing that, I would like to know as that would be just as unacceptable. Even worse if it was on TV and being celebrated as liberation for anyone, but I bet it wouldn't be described as liberating for any males.

Ultimately I don't think there's one type of drag, or drag artist.

I think the vast majority are gay men who find comfort and kinship in outwardly displaying the feminity they probably struggled with as a child (other children, especially boys, aren't known for historically being particularly welcoming to boys who are effeminate). They probably did (and still do) receive a lot of abuse for non being your stereotypical manly man, and having 'feminine' interests like dance, sewing etc.

To then create and display an act that is based on extreme stereotypical feminity is in that sense an act of bravery. They're reclaiming something about themselves that they used to be belittled for, and forming a community.

Of course not all drag queens are gay and not all gay men like drag, but for those who do: have at it, I say.

I get why people think it's misogynistic (because they're often wearing boobs and talking about smelly fannies etc) and some women feel they're ultimately men punching down and mocking women for their mannerisms and bodies. I don't share this view. I would wonder how many people who have drag queens in their social circle would think what they're doing is mockery, rather than an exaggerated expression of one side of their character.

Society itself is misogynistic, otherwise 'feminine' men wouldn't face discrimination. Feminity and womanhood in general are widely seen as 'less' than masculinity and manhood. But I think that's a deeper issue, and accusing drag queens of perpetuating it is focusing energy on the wrong group. They don't need any more hate directed toward them. They're not the bad guys in this situation. If they want to dress as comically slutty women whose boobs keep bouncing fully out of their clothes and who keep having to pause their act to 'give birth' and then throw the baby into the audience because it's 'another black one' then... ok yes that particular example is very offensive but it's A) an extreme example and not representative of drag as a whole and B) one of the funniest things I've ever seen. The sort of 'funny because it's so offensive' humour that would go down like a lead balloon on here.

I don't know. I just think 'Women v Drag Queens' isn't a fight anyone is going to win. We both suffer because of the same system and we all know what that is.

JustSpeculation, I'm guessing, 'Wow, just wow' and 'Lol' are the new 'No debate' (ie 'I can't discuss this any further because I have no rational argument')

Shedbuilder.

I think that neatly illustrates the misogynistic mindset held by many men who perform drag.

Oh ffs. Jammy dodgers.

Engage with the actual arguement rather than hiding behind other peoples intersectional identities
Oh just wow, lol.
I'd biscuit but I believe that's frowned upon nowadays.

The word "argument" is mistyped in @AdHominemNonSequitur's post, but other than that I see no reason to belittle the point.

Why "just LOL"?
And what's wrong with biscuits (I have genuinely missed this)?

There may be a case for standpoint theory adding to a position, but it can not replace reasoned argument. So what are the reasons? If you don't engage with the argument, then there is no argument.