Drag and misogyny

I don't believe all gay men are feminine. Do you?

We understand opression on the basis of femininity very well, I think we just disagree on the best way to say "fuck you" to societal expectations.

It has everything to do with women, whilst there is still the concept of a stereotypical women (or man).

Who are gay men being oppressed by? Not women. It would be more effective to rip the piss out of toxic masculinity than smelly genetalia and exagerated sex characteristics.

You could keep pontificating about it, or you could listen to women.

CuriousaboutSamphire
I've not noticed them. I shall keep an eye out for any corkers.

You could keep pontificating about it. Or you could listen to gay people.

You could keep maintaining your misogynistic view. Or you could listen to women.

It is LolaSmiles

That particular poster has been a bit of a gift recently, I suspect they have other motives over and above making us snigger!

They have posted a couple of absolute corkers - and that's just the ones I have seen

Let me lay it out:
Gay men are oppressed and insulted for being too feminine.
instead of conforming to societal expectations, Drag performers accentuate their femininity as a "fuck you" to societal expectations.

Let me lay it out:
Women have been oppressed and abused forever for the way they act, their bodies and their bodily functions.
Gay men never had to 'continue societal expectations' by mocking women, by adopting mocking mannerisms, by adopting names that mock the realities of women's lives, by calling each other and perpetuating slurs that relate to women ... in all.

To do their 'fuck you', they actually did NOT have to denigrate women in any way.

But they chose to.

I hate it. As a young lesbian in provincial l&g clubs in the 80s we were routinely insulted, called fish or it was pointed out how dull we were in comparison to the drag queens. Also mostly it was just not funny, much of it just consisted of men hoiking their fake bosom and saying, "ooh, get her". It was tedious and I hated it, but it was difficult to avoid on the scene at the time.

334bu CuriousaboutSamphire
We must have hit post at the same time.

Isn't it fun being told to shut up and listen to men?

Forgetting all of the rest of that

You could keep pontificating about it. Or you could listen to gay people. And another beautiful DARVO from yeahbutnaw

As has already been said You could keep pontificating about it. Or you could listen to women .

You could keep pontificating about it. Or you could listen to gay people.

So no change there. Women shut up and listen to the men but heaven forbid the men should actually listen to the women.

You could keep pontificating about it. Or you could listen to gay people
Or you could explain to us why you're strongly driven to tell women to get back in their box for objecting to derogatory and misogynistic jokes about women.

It's both funny and depressing that on threads where where discuss misogyny, there's always posters ready to tell women to put up, shut up, and listen to men.

Yes I added that bit 1. To show it was true and he acknowledged it happened

2. I didn’t want my post deleted so 1. shows it’s true

1. Hopefully he’s shown ‘remorse’ and actually feels remorse too. So there’s hope that discussions like these on this thread will start questioning whether the BBC should really be marketing this show mainstream and at schoolkids who won’t have the critical analysis and experience of life like us mumsnetters.

I met John Barrowman and to say I am disgusted with his actions is an understatement.

I'd like to see people explain to us why this is ok?

Now. Today's drag performers, not performers 20 years ago. The performers that are out there doing this now.

Why is this ok again?
Because it is ok to be a misogynist if you are 'fighting against discrimination by your own sex'?
Because culturally it was deemed ok in the past?
Because the women telling you it is wrong are 'those types' of women and should be ignored?
Because my friend/neighbour/favourite performer doesn't bring that into their acts, so NADQALT?
Because only 'some women' think it is mocking women?
Because it is only men dressing up. I don't see anything wrong with taking on derogatory names and attitudes and other issues that you all complain about, it is only men dressing up? And they look so confident and happy, so let them do it?
Because female comedians make genital reference jokes too? (never mind that they are not doing it dressed as a parody of a man while they are doing it)
Because it is just people expressing themselves?

I would like to know why. And if it is only a sub-culture of the entire genre, what is being done to address the misogyny by performers who don't support it?

Which other performers are publicly calling out the misogyny that is being enabled?

Women are oppressed and insulted for being too feminine too. We don't want to be collateral for gay men.

You could keep pontificating about it. Or you could listen to women.

The comments here suggest a lack of understanding of gay oppression.

Let me lay it out:

• Gay men are oppressed and insulted for being too feminine.
• instead of conforming to societal expectations, Drag performers accentuate their femininity as a "fuck you" to societal expectations.

Drag is a response to oppression of gay men. It has essentially nothing to do with women. Other than femininity being a shared characteristic of stereotypical women and gay men.

You could keep pontificating about it. Or you could listen to gay people.

But bring in the concept of a gendered soul and a postmodern structural opppression hierachy reversal and suddenly you can be punching up at that cis privellege.

Of course it's a grotesque and mocking parody of women. Those saying it's just men wearing stereotypically female clothing and makeup are in denial. I'm old enough to remember the 70s and 80s when lots of men wore makeup and feminine fabrics (Google The Sweet). What they didn't do was wear comedy breasts, tuck their dicks away, practise female body language for hours and give themselves misogynistic names referring to female bodily functions, abortions, smells etc. If it's not a parody of womanhood why the breasts, why the names? Obvious misogyny is obvious.

With fairness to John Barrowman it is reported he has apologised for past events.

Sure he has , after the fact and probably only because he is fearful about future work. In what universe did he think it was ever acceptable to hit women on the face with his penis.

I find it misogynistic. Have never liked it. Pleased to find others feeling the same.

If it’s all so inoffensive, why is the Drag scene not cleaning up its act and condemning the acts and names that are generating the complaints?

Doubling down gives the impression that they actually approve of the more offensive acts.

I go to a lot of drag shows and yes some of it is horribly misogynistic and in really bad taste. Other acts are creative, intelligent and really focus on either performance skills or incredible design and make up.

It's a shame that the off key stuff is not pulled up more though as it can be off putting for women in the audience I imagine.

In summary I would say lots of Drag is wonderful and I love to watch it but some of it is definitely offensive to women.

And as pp upthread said there is a difference between comedy punching up or down.

With fairness to John Barrowman it is reported he has apologised for past events.

I suppose it’s the John Barrowman defence: It can’t be offensive to put your penis on an unsuspecting actress’ shoulder as a joke because you’re gay. I find that equally offensive to gay men and to women.

Yes I do.

Drag kids is a whole other ball game.