Drag and misogyny

Mumsnet feminist's entire fucking worldview is that gender and masculinity and femininity are only loosely based on sex.

Not really. They aren't based on biological sex at all. 'Gender' is based on stereotypes of what society deems 'masculine' or 'feminine', in the place and time it happens to be.

Do you do a drag act, Great Aunt Fanny? There's something about the combination of your name and the complete irrationality of this:

However - and this is the crux of it for me - I would never go up to a drag queen who was having a blast performing as a woman and say 'I find what you are doing offensive and harmful to women and I want you to stop' because on an individual basis, that's not how I feel. I'd just see a person having a good time doing something they excel at and entertaining people. Any underlying misogyny (that women are slutty/silly/etc) comes from somewhere other than that person

Where do you think the misogyny comes from?

I'd just see a person having a good time doing something they excel at and entertaining people. Any underlying misogyny (that women are slutty/silly/etc) comes from somewhere other than that person.

Could you please clarify this? Are you saying that a drag performer who included misogynistic material in their show is not to blame for the content they are performing? And because they are out there having a good time, it is ok?

It's like going up to someone wearing trainers and saying 'Excuse me, but Adidas use sweatshops, and by wearing those you are personally contributing to the suffering and exploitation of impoverished women and children, take those off right now you bastard'. The problem is further up the line.

And again I ask, because I have yet to get any answer. What are drag performers who understand that there is a great deal of misogyny in their genre doing about this? Which ones are publicly speaking out? I have not seen one, is there someone I should be looking for?

Maybe drag does need to do more to recognise it's inherent misogyny. In fact, having read posts from lesbians who have been mocked by queens, it absolutely does.

So, no other posts from other women made you think.... ah... yes. That does cross the line.

But it shouldn't be shut down. There must be a middle ground

Sure, but again.... which performers are even acknowledging that misogyny exists in their genre?

Must be a man, too angry sounding to sound like a woman!

Or it could just be the fact they seem to wish to speak on behalf of all gay men combined with the completely ignoring any misogynistic element of drag.

The fact that anyone thinks that it is ok for women to be dehumanised and parodied for entertainment and that there is nothing at all wrong in the acts that we have discussed on the threads probably needs to think about what their intentions are.

People posting that degree of denial that this happens and stating that any of these acts highlighted are acceptable is probably coming from an agenda that is not pro-women at all.

Many drag queens do an awful lot in terms of HIV support, anti-racism etc.

I've read through every comment on this thread, and I do agree elements of misogyny are woven into drag culture.

However - and this is the crux of it for me - I would never go up to a drag queen who was having a blast performing as a woman and say 'I find what you are doing offensive and harmful to women and I want you to stop' because on an individual basis, that's not how I feel. I'd just see a person having a good time doing something they excel at and entertaining people. Any underlying misogyny (that women are slutty/silly/etc) comes from somewhere other than that person. It's like going up to someone wearing trainers and saying 'Excuse me, but Adidas use sweatshops, and by wearing those you are personally contributing to the suffering and exploitation of impoverished women and children, take those off right now you bastard'. The problem is further up the line.

Maybe drag does need to do more to recognise it's inherent misogyny. In fact, having read posts from lesbians who have been mocked by queens, it absolutely does. But it shouldn't be shut down. There must be a middle ground.

Some drag performers make powerful political points as part of their acts.

Some drag performers raise money for good causes.

Some drag performers use music / theatre skills they have as part of their drag.

It seems to me that the latter two reasons have nothing to do with drag, they are co-incidental to drag. The same people could be doing that without doing drag.

So we are left with the powerful political points that some drag performers make.

Do the benefits of these points being made outweigh the misogyny which many women perceive as coming from drag?

Is drag needed in order to make the point, or at least to make it well?

I am happy to buy into the idea that some drag acts are wonderful and benefit society even if their act is basically misogynistic. Similarly there's a comedian I've seen a couple of times who (IMO successfully) made jokes about two of the least acceptable subjects in comedy.

But, based on your response, you are justifying a small handful of exceptionally clever and brave and moral drag queens, not drag itself.

Yes, for as long as there's one woman left in the world who thoughtlessly introduces a gay friend to their mates with the appalling homophobic slur 'this is my gay friend', drag will have continue its brave and stunning fight against oppression.

Having an uncle of an age I have to admit I do know gay men who made fun of gay stereotypes.

Vada the chary strides on omi ajax

Or the Clockwork orange speech - Polari/Nadsat

Being Scouse Nadsat was really understandable. My accent lends itself to mixing up words (I was in my 40s before DH told me that a lolly ice is actually an ice lolly or that khazi was not an everyday English word) and that the nickname I use for my nephew is also Nadsat - my malenky bogbbratty - he was a tad spoiled so "little god brother" was apt.

Burgess would have been familiar with Polari, even if it was dying out. Just as my uncle, illegal until in his mid 20s, would have known how to shush his butch ommes slap and shyckle afore trolling for fantabulosa chickens and omni polones, avoiding the Lillys etc.

Sometimes the 'progression' in any cohort of society is unpleasant and lacks the knowing humour of it's predecessors - whose repression was a damn sight more unpleasant than anything today!

Society is misogynistic anyway, so let's have more of it? What.

And then you more or less tell us we don't have a good enough sense of humour after describing a horribly misogynistic and racist 'sketch'. I guess we're just not as cool as you, huh?

@AdHominemNonSequitur, that's brilliant?

Yes, for as long as there's one woman left in the world who thoughtlessly introduces a gay friend to their mates with the appalling homophobic slur 'this is my gay friend', drag will have continue its brave and stunning fight against oppression.

The idea that women aren’t homophobic is a laugh. Just because your friends aren’t doesn’t mean there aren’t homophobic women.

Seriously they are both as offensive or inoffensive compared to your pc outlook on life.

You sound like a very angry man
Lol, that's ridiculous - is there a way that women are supposed to speak now, or is it because the poster did an unladylike swear?!
Must be a man, too angry sounding to sound like a woman!
Funny how if it's a GC voice on here sounding angry or whatever, it's ''women don't have to be kind!' '
If it's an opposite opinion,' 'it's you sound like a man!'

I am going to go out on a limb and say that gay men are not more opressed than women in the west in 2021.
I'd fucking swap in a heartbeat.

Gay men are oppressed for being FEMININE.

Hence they perform FEMININITY.

Performing masculinity would, by definition, be conforming to societal expectations.

What part of this are you not getting?

Ooh, I don't know. maybe the part about where FEMININITY involves males dressing up in highly sexualised clothing, stopping their shows to deliver babies and to throw into the audience with the exclamation of 'another black one'? Is that feminine?

Maybe it is the part where FEMININITY, involves taking a small girl that was murdered, and more than likely abused, certainly objectified, and using it as a name for people's entertainment? Is that feminine?

Maybe it is calling each other bitches and exaggerated mannerisms? Is that feminine is, or is that a MALE's view of what FEMININITY is?

What part of this are you not getting?

Probably the part where any drag queen parodying what they perceive as being a woman as FEMININITY?

Or maybe we are not getting how you, yourself, have a such a very misogynistic view on what FEMININITY is?

"Can anyone point out any other benefits of drag? Does it make intelligent points, or help break down stereotypes, or help undermine bigotry and hate? Does it build up oppressed people?"

Sorry, can't figure out how to copy bits of quotes in bold.

To answer the question Jedi, yes it does, as any art form can. Check out performers like Sasha Velour and their Nightgowns shows. A lot of black queens work hard to highlight race issues and these can be very moving - see Monet X Change's version of 'Strange Fruit' on YouTube, or Symone's 'say their names' runway performance making the point of remembering black people killed by police. Drag queens do lots of fundraisers, AIDS awareness, stuff like that to support their community. And they are often trained musicians, singers, opera singers, choreographers who bring elements of that to their drag performances. Who want to entertain and have real talent and compassion.

It goes without saying I condemn some of the crass and genuinely misogynistic type of queens previously mentioned, who mock their audience and put little effort into cruel jokes.

Yes, often very evident that the men performing drag despise women.

Wondering how much time yeahbutnaw spends on men's websites, berating them for oppressing LGBT people ...

I don't know women who make fun of gay stereotypes: none of my friends are homophobic

Same.

Now, now Shed We aren't allowed real life friedns fo the vareied nature. Let alone to be old enough to have had friends and family of that nature in a different bloody century!

Aside: AS I type Donna Summer is warbling I Feel Love.. and I can't help feel the regression of this century as far as every day inclusivity is concerned!

[quote yeahbutnaw]@Shedbuilder

All due respect, but do you have any gay male friends? You seem to be reducing LGBT oppression to violent acts, which is a gross misrepresentation of oppression.

Do straight women take part in gay-bashing? Yes. Probably not as often as men. But they do.

Do they participate in other forms of LGBT oppression? Abso-fucking-lutely. How many times have you heard a woman introduce a friend as "my gay friend"? How many times have you heard a woman say, "Such a waste" when they hear someone is gay? How many times have you heard a woman make fun of gay stereotypes?

Answer? All. The. Fucking. Time.[/quote]
I have always had gay male friends, right the way back to school and university, all the way through HIV and the early days of Pride. I was also involved with Stonewall. I now live in a city famed for its gay culture.

I wouldn't be bothered by anyone introducing me as Shedbuilder, their lesbian friend. I can't help wondering how deep your internalised homophobia goes that you are regard that as oppression. I don't know women who make fun of gay stereotypes: none of my friends are homophobic.

You sound like a very angry man.

Oh, no! That was Steve Coogan wasn't it?

Or maybe Vesta Tilley. Scandalous and very patriotic. My great grandmother and DHs great Aunt loved her with a passion! I remmber Grandma talking about her with the wide eyed amazement we usually reserve for war heroes, adventurers.

www.theguardian.com/music/2010/may/13/cross-dressing-women-musical-theatre

yeahbutnaw
As you care deeply about fighting oppression perhaps you could explain:
How do stage names mocking abortions and miscarriage fight the oppression of gay men?
How to misogynistic jokes about women's genitals fight the oppression of gay men?

You're really not getting that gay people do not have the monopoly on oppression over women.