Drag and misogyny

I disagree.

If you reframed as, "drag can sometimes be misogynistic" you wouldn't get the same reaction. Nobody's denying that misogyny exists. People are disputing the rubbish here that all drag is misogynistic.

I'm aware of the history and significance of Strange Fruit and am not placing the version I mentioned over any others in importance or merit, it was just an example that sprang to mind. Ah! When I saw it I was wondering how much he was going to appropriate. Turns out it was all of it!

And the "Yeah" between stanzas was REALLY offputting, weirdly celebratory!

I am surprised that anyone knowing the history of the song found it at all palateable!, video included! We get admonished for appropriating the suffering of black people enough here without being pointed towards a well off black male doing the same and seemingly being celebrated for it!

I think in a lot of cases it's a form of expressing a feminine side

It is, but of the dark, shadow variety. a really negative feminine. I think a lot of gay men are possessed by a negative female anima ( Jungian term for the shadow feminine in a man)

*It's ... not a competition?

Some gay men are misogynistic.

Some women are homophobic.

Both things can be true.*

Eeerm, yes? And yet you're the one completely denying that gay men are behaving in a misogynistic way. When women speak up and say "the way you are portraying us is misogynistic, I'd like you to stop", YOU call THEM homophobic, and tell them they are not listening to gay people?? You literally cannot make that level of irony up. You are the ones not listening.

Yes, absolutely. I've always hated drag

Me too! My friend used to take me along to 'Duckie' at the Vauxhall Tavern when it first started out. He thought it was wonderful! I knew I was supposed to enjoy it; but never did. Have always found it really distasteful and crude.

@334bu I wouldn't say people largely perform in drag to humiliate women though - to @JediGnot too, I think in a lot of cases it's a form of expressing a feminine side. Maybe I'm wrong on that and I always read threads on this issue to take things on board.

@CuriousaboutSamphire I'm aware of the history and significance of Strange Fruit and am not placing the version I mentioned over any others in importance or merit, it was just an example that sprang to mind.

[quote yeahbutnaw]@CuriousaboutSamphire Challenging! My last post seems to have sent the homophobes into a frenzy. I can't keep up![/quote]
Not sure which thread you are referring to. Do you have a link?

Yet more DARVO!

You have that down absolutely pat!

I think it's misogynistic. I completely disagree with those who say it celebrates women. It doesn't

For certain!

The images portrayed are often vulgar and grotesque, and also most often highly sexualised in a way which relies on 'slapper', slag', 'whore' stereotypes. There is nothing celebratory about it.

To me it encapsulates the alienation and often repulsion that gay men feel towards women and their bodies.

Are you ever going to address the blatant, gaping double standards in what you're saying?

@CuriousaboutSamphire Challenging! My last post seems to have sent the homophobes into a frenzy. I can't keep up!

Respond ffs!

New keyboard and whilst I can now see all the keys the backspace sticks

That's not listening to gay man. That's listening to a gay man. Singular.

Get it?

... we would all be ever so grateful

Some gay men are misogynistic.

Some women are homophobic.

Both things can be true.

1. "Are you saying that a drag performer who included misogynistic material in their show is not to blame for the content they are performing? And because they are out there having a good time, it is ok?"

No, if they make a directly misogynistic remark, that would be their personal responsibility (although I assume our interpretations of what constitutes misogyny differ). I take issue with the idea that drag itself is inherently misogynistic and so anyone doing drag is a misogynist.

1. "And again I ask, because I have yet to get any answer."

Ooh, matron!

1. "What are drag performers who understand that there is a great deal of misogyny in their genre doing about this? Which ones are publicly speaking out? I have not seen one, is there someone I should be looking for?"

Whataboutism. Like saying, "What women are speaking out in favour of fathers who don't get to see their children as often as they'd like?" That's what you're doing.

It would be nice to see a drag queens speaking out against misogyny. But to be honest, they've got enough to speak out against.

1. "So, no other posts from other women made you think.... ah... yes. That does cross the line."

I don't know what you're talking about here because you've said this in response to me saying I have taken into account the posts of women and accept that there is an element of misogyny in the drag community and it should be challenged.

@Shedbuilder
I'm not a drag queen, no 🤦‍♀️

You could keep pontificating about it. Or you could listen to gay people

My brother is gay and also thinks drag is misogynistic. He absolutely hates it.

Should I listen to him, or is he the wrong kind of gay man?

The idea that women aren’t homophobic is a laugh. Just because your friends aren’t doesn’t mean there aren’t homophobic women

The ide that gay men aren't misogynistic is a laugh. Just because your friends claim they aren't doesn't mean there aren't misogynistic gay men.

Just another day on Mumsnet.

"I'm not homophobic BUT..."

Funny how the original Strange Fruit, when copied by a man in drag, becomes moving. The original was deemed shocking and is the most moving version of that song ever recorded - for obvious reasons, he wrote it as a Jew seeing injustice and being haunted by a photograph, she recorded it having seen strange fruit and her father dying because he, as a black man, was truned away from hospital.

He wrote it under a pseudonym as it would have wrecked his career.
It did help wreck hers.

But it is a safe, brave and stunning choice these days.

Go figure!

I was under the impression yeahbutnaw was a gay male? Have I misunderstood, are you just talking on behalf of gay males, yeah?

I mean, you can call 'micro aggressions' like 'here is my gay male friend' oppressing if you really wish, I think it's more useful to concentrate on the actions that have impact - actual literal violence, discrimination, slander, etc.

To answer the question Jedi, yes it does, as any art form can. Check out performers like Sasha Velour and their Nightgowns shows. A lot of black queens work hard to highlight race issues and these can be very moving - see Monet X Change's version of 'Strange Fruit' on YouTube, or Symone's 'say their names' runway performance making the point of remembering black people killed by police. Drag queens do lots of fundraisers, AIDS awareness, stuff like that to support their community. And they are often trained musicians, singers, opera singers, choreographers who bring elements of that to their drag performances. Who want to entertain and have real talent and compassion.

Just no compassion for women!!! Wait it's art , so it doesn't matter how many women are humiliated.

Article on misogyny in drag from a gay man.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/gay-men-lgbt-50th-anniversary-misogyny-rupaul-drag-race-fishy-queen-lesbians-a7862516.html

'I used to think it was my obligation to make disparaging remarks about female friends’ appearances and outfits. Especially if they weren’t glam enough'

Women are judged against the (yes, ridiculous) standards of femininity embodied to a cartoonish scale by drag queens.

Mumsnet feminist's entire fucking worldview is that gender and masculinity and femininity are only loosely based on sex. Who typed that?

As Soap said - the GC understanding is that gender is based on societal mores, stereotypes not biological sex.

So Feminine, not female
Masculine, not male

The characteristics a society ascribes to a sex class not the biological reality of gametes, bodies etc. Gender changes with society and over time. Sex doesn't change.