Drag and misogyny

When I search your username Yeahbutnaw. You appear on 15 threads over a 3 month period You are fairly prolific on those threads. I wouldn't call you an occasional user or a lurker. You do stand out, but it is not because of how suprising you views are.

We have a many regulars who seem to tag team to attempt to re-educate our wrongthink, plus we are not all confined to mumsnet.

How much a hive-mind Mumsnet must be if I've made that much of an impression when I barely use the site

You've found yourself in a hive of people who reject negative and confining gender stereotypes; especially as they relate to women.

Women who dislike quite intensely the use of words and portrayals which have long been used to demean them, and to put them down.

Like everyone else here, you're saying that drag is bad because a drag performer did a bad thing. That's a logical fallacy.

You're talking about the terminology used by some gay men who do drag. That's very different.

So that's all right then. Only some call women offensive humiliating names and all the rest say " Just a minute that's not acceptable" Oh wait a minute no they don't, they try and justify these bullies by calling it art or a fight against oppression. It's hate ....hatred of women. Should be a crime but wait misogyny is deliberately excluded from hate crime legislation because women don't count.

1. How does demeaning women and female sexuality fight the oppression of gay men?

yeahbutnaw.
I know you're very busy putting women in their place and telling them to put up and shut up, but I'm still interested in your argument that drag is about freeing gay men from oppression.
I can't help but notice that you've successfully avoided these questions twice already, unless I missed your reply.

1. How do stage names mocking abortions and miscarriage fight the oppression of gay men?
2. How to misogynistic jokes about women's genitals fight the oppression of gay men?

And to add a few more:

1. How demeaning women and female sexuality fight the oppression of gay men?
2. Why exactly are you seemingly obsessed with telling women to put up and shut up?

When I was at university I studied a lot of about homosexuality in 18th century. I could be a little fuzzy on some aspects of it but I do think the origins of drag are relevant, though of course it has transformed enormously in the hundreds of years since.

"Molly Houses" were popularised during this period as a place where homosexual men could meet to engage in sexual contact and conversation. Many of these nights included drag but it was very much a challenge to the patriarchy and the cultural norms of masculinity. Even the word Molly was a discriminatory word for an effeminate man. They would enact marriage ceremonies and typically female sphere activities. I don't believe in anything I read that it was about mocking women. These men wanted to reject the gender rules because they didn't fit in to what was expected of a man.

I still think now it's more a rejection of patriarchy rather than about mocking women...
But 100% I hate the term fishy.

People who dissent from the hive-mind must really stand out.

Then why isn't your argument that everyone should stop using misogynistic language?

It is. I am also arguing that this group of performers seem to embrace this and get away with it.

Explain

Sure. When you have given more than distraction and deflective answers. You really haven't addressed any issues.

But you have resorted to telling us all we are phobic here again. It is a tactic I have seen you use plenty of times before.

What about drag queens who are not in the gay community, what abot the heterosexual male drag queens or the trans fem drag queens? From Drag race alone there are 8 trans women acts: Sonique, Peppermint, Carmen, Jiggly Caliente, Kenya Michaels, Gia Gunn, Monica Beverly Hillz, Stacy Layne Matthews. Not sure how it is drag if TWAW, it's very logically inconsistant, but how does your "it's just feminine gay men performing their inate feminity as a fuck you to society because society has rejected them for it" narrative play out with straight men doing drag?

It doesn't fit their argument AdHominem so they will just ignore it.

Drag revels in misogyny as do those who watch and support it, it's viewed as an acceptable way to demean and ridicule women, and people wonder why women are thought so little of in society in general.

Strangely a minority view on Mumsnet. Bravo Sheerheight for not conforming to the hive-mind.

People having a different opinion to you is a ''hive-mind''?

Has it come as a surprise to you that the majority of feminists on a feminist board find misogyny offensive?

Can you tell us another one? Do you have time

I've been exposed to live drag since I was 16 years old, when my best friend ( gay male) would take me to the Vauxhall Tavern. He has a drag act himself now, and was effectively responsible for creating the whole gay clubbing scene in Cambodia - where many gay men still feel expected to, and do, marry.

Strangely a minority view on Mumsnet. Bravo Sheerheight for not conforming to the hive-mind.

Alternatively, comiserations to you for conforming to the comparatively larger hive mind that is the people that defend this.

Your self awareness and ability to spot hypocrisy in yourself is vanishingly low.

How do you feel about Drag Kings How do you feel about them @Quaggars @yeahbutnaw

Are they in any way offensive to males? Do any men object to them in the way women ofbject to drag queens?

That's nonsense

Are you at aware of how dismissive you are coming across?

What has been told to you is not nonsense.

How do you feel about Drag Kings

Historical? See upthread

Nowadays - not seen any, but a quick google doesn't reveal any particularly over egged depictions of masculinity. It seems to be visually more nuanced.

"You're not talking about drag.
You're talking about specific terms that are used by people in the gay community. Find them offensive? Fine. Talk about them. People will probably agree.
Instead, you're saying that drag is bad because a Drag Queen once used the word "fishy".
That's nonsense."

Indeed. "Not all drag Queens". I'm sure some parody only the positive aspects of femininity and steer away from the reproductive side of things.

It isn't a one off reference to "fishy", multiple examples have been given of acts that use this or similar.

What about drag queens who are not in the gay community, what abot the heterosexual male drag queens or the trans fem drag queens? From Drag race alone there are 8 trans women acts: Sonique, Peppermint, Carmen, Jiggly Caliente, Kenya Michaels, Gia Gunn, Monica Beverly Hillz, Stacy Layne Matthews. Not sure how it is drag if TWAW, it's very logically inconsistant, but how does your "it's just feminine gay men performing their inate feminity as a fuck you to society because society has rejected them for it" narrative play out with straight men doing drag?

How do you feel about Drag Kings

i don't have any specific feelings about drag kings, because i've not had enough exposure to them. I'm imagining though that the masculine portrayals are not so negative or contemptuous?

Then why isn't your argument that everyone should stop using misogynistic language?

Because drag acts are the only people who get away with using this language. Everyone else is, rightly, called out for it.

Personally no i don't find it offensive . Neither do I find it entertaining. I didn't find the chippendales entertaining when I saw them on a hen do years ago.
Live and let live.

That's a very masculine way of reading that!I read it as "Yet again you are ignoring what specific posters are telling you. That we are all one Lump of Woman as far as you are concerned." You are unaware of the online persona of the poster you are responding to

Precisely!

How many times do we see gay people object to the stereotypical portrayal of themselves by straight actors.

Care to answer that Quaggers? After all they are only acting they are not saying they are gay.

I can't keep up!

Sorry @yeahbutnaw but that makes no sense. THIS is a thread about drag and misogyny.

That's is what we are discussing.

Not crocodiles or alligators and misogyny.

Or male hegemony in general!