Drag and misogyny

'worn-out hookers?'

That's a revolting comment.

I have caught up so not followed so well who is saying what..I don't know what your opinion is. But that is a gross shocking and revolting thing to say.

What makes you think it's ok to say that?

Have you even thought about what you're saying? The women around the world you're referencing? The girls? The totally male view of how much value a girl or woman has? The dehumanising?

What makes you think that's ok. Seriously.

Sorry still catching up.

Just saw this post which I know others have responded to.

' If they want to dress as comically slutty women whose boobs keep bouncing fully out of their clothes and who keep having to pause their act to 'give birth' and then throw the baby into the audience because it's 'another black one' then... ok yes that particular example is very offensive but it's A) an extreme example and not representative of drag as a whole and B) one of the funniest things I've ever seen. '

What... Just. What?

'comically slutty women'. Slutty meaning having sex with lots of men.

Who is it that is obsessed with the virgin/ whore thing? Which women are 'slutty'? Women who get paid for sex. Women/ children who are groomed and society dismisses them as sluts. (Rotherham the girls were seen by authorities as 'child prostitutes). Women and girls having a very common reaction to rape/ sexual abuse (take power back). Women who like having sex with men. And that makes them a slut.

Ok so far so good.

Boobs bouncing fully out of their clothes. Why always always this focus on tits? It's such a male gaze thing. That is shit for women. Too big too small. Get shouted at. Get them out. Big breasts are always seen as somehow both sexual and very obscene. By men. They must be tethered. They are... Seen as both very sexual even if on a girl, and also somehow too much, ridiculous. Why are men so weird about breasts. They're fetishised, essentially. Great for those who have them and can't take them off.

Another black one? So that's a joke about not just being promiscuous, but sleeping with black men. Erm. Bit racist? Lot racist. Is this from the 70s?

Slutty woman has no care for babies. Throws them away. Nice.

And on the black baby thing. Women around the world and forever had all sorts of consequences of having a baby by the 'wrong' father. Or having them at all out of certain circs.

I imagine this joke must be referencing the ww2 history:
www.historyextra.com/period/20th-century/mixed-race-babies-born-after-the-second-world-war/

Or is it just saying that women who are white sluts are racist and happy to murder their newborns?

Funniest thing eh?

I suppose the answer will be you're reading too much into it...

Nah it's misogynist tripe. A man performing this has fuck only knows what view of women.

Oh no they're not!

At least pantomines are widely viewed as old fashioned

Oh no they're not!

Never really found Keith Lemon funny, so Bo Selecta I purposefully skipped as thought a migraine or root canal surgery would be preferable to watching it lol

Why do drag artists always look like worn-out hookers?
That’s not something that most natural women aspire to.

Anyone remember bo selecta?

Mel b on hols.

I know he was crass but I did watch it after the pub. I remember all those years ago being at this even given the other stuff.

Minge kicking off a right pong...

What is it with men? Is another question.

Gay straight whatever. And it is kicking down even in the men who do it are gay.

www.dailymotion.com/video/x2xqkeb

Not caught up sorry.

Fyi there are loads of Jonbenet queens. I had a quick Google when I first heard about it. It's a 'thing' don't know how else to put it.

I don't watch the prog on the BBC but one night I was a bit pissed and thought well I should have a look in case it's not as bad as I think it will be.

Note for me, the whole panto dame/ drag thing has always made me uncomfy from when I was little. It wasn't til I was much older until I realised why!

Anyway there was a load of the whole stereotype bitchy stuff while getting ready and then it was 'lolita'.

And I just said oh for fucks sake.

The arguments that this style is nothing to do with the book is just such utter bollocks that I'm hoping no one puts that argument!

One was 'depressed up' as a little girl iirc.

And I said fucking hell and switched over.

I've always hated drag, mostly because it's based on hate. The subtext is that women must be mocked and belittled and are then told that "it's only a joke" when it's nothing of the sort.

Drag is also deeply, deeply boring. Ooh, a man has put on a massive wig and a kilo of slap along with a padded bra then a shiny plunging dress no natal woman would consider ever, let's have a sing song and a laugh for three hours - no. Any possible appeal fades after about a minute of inane humour and tedious double entendres.

It's just awful in so many ways.

When we have mainstream entertainment with women dressed up as men, wearing string vests, perving over tits and arses, drinking beer and knocking 'her indoors' about for not having tea on the table, then I guess that would be equality. Only no one would find that funny, especially men.

French and Saunders did that many years ago. It wasn't very funny, though the point was well made....

And yeah, all very highly sexualised. Men portraying women as bitchy, slutty, tasteless objects for the nation's entertainment. No thanks.

Drag exists to poke fun at negative stereotypes of women. Fishy vaginas, bitchy, cold-hearted, caked in make up and slutty, tasteless clothes etc.

When we have mainstream entertainment with women dressed up as men, wearing string vests, perving over tits and arses, drinking beer and knocking 'her indoors' about for not having tea on the table, then I guess that would be equality. Only no one would find that funny, especially men.

People who dissent from the hive-mind must really stand out

Oh. and this is another great example of that distraction and deflection

Not really, I think the poster has a point there in a way.
If I name change, I only have to post once or twice and you have people calling you he, or American if you post after midnight (that was a particular bizarre one that I remember for being so weird lol)
You get people all jumping in to try and discredit what you're saying as you must be a bot, or male, or some such nonsense.
That's been my experience anyway, and seems others too on some level

There has been a definite theme of women being left behind and let down by movements designed to champion other marginalised groups.

I don't think drag has anything to do with femininity. It is a highly sexualized representation of women, veering towards the pornographic. It is a very undignified representation of women. I don't like it. My bank (in Canada) used a drag queen to push a credit card in an on line ad that I kept getting. I complained through my branch and got a phone call from a regional exec. He indicated some sympathy but said young adults weren't bothered by it. It is the drip drip drip of the erosion of boundaries.

Widow Twankey is not the same sort of performance or even in the same realms of entertainment as Anna Bortion and JonBenet but maybe there is some confusion between the two, for some.

I'm not confused.

Kitty Demure is not confused.

Not read the full thread so I don't know if I'm repeating whats already been mentioned, although I find some aspects of drag to be disrespectful to women i.e. using the term 'fishy' and some of the drag names. I do think it can be an interesting, fun and funny form of performance art. I liked the earlier series of Drag Race and some of the performers are amazingly creative but I think its jumped the shark a bit now.

I do have a real issue with comparing drag to blackface. Blackface has a long and terrible history and was used by groups such as the KKK to cause serious harm to black people. They are not alike.

"I also think one of the things that makes drag sting so much as a woman is the fact that it's actively praised for being progressive."

Good point. As if anything that re-enforces gender stereotypes is progressive.

Which brings me back to the parallels with the trans issues at the moment.

With trans I supported trans rights unquestioningly, then started asking questions... why is identifying as a woman different from identifying as black? Why do gender based rights trump sex based rights? Do you even acknowledge the potential for gender rights to impinge on long fought for sex based rights? What does identifying as a woman even mean?

My experience was that almost every response involved insults and accusations of bigotry. Trans activists actually attempting to answer pretty much never happened, and answering with a modicum of reason literally never happened.

I've never really thought much about drag before today... the more I have read on this thread the worse drag looks... partly because lots of women are making good points, but mainly because the "drag is not misogynistic" side of the argument has a 100 insults to zero well-reasoned arguments, and that's a pretty poor ratio that suggests there ain't ever gonna be a counter-argument coming.

I agree-although I can live in a world that contains Aunt Polly Tumble a lot more easily than one which lauds Anna Bortion and the others.

I agree 100%

I also think one of the things that makes drag sting so much as a woman is the fact that it's actively praised for being progressive. At least pantomines are widely viewed as old fashioned and aren't constantly given a platform and shoe horned into mainstream TV.

I've always found drag unpleasant and offensive. Most of it revolves explicitly around how repulsive, ugly or disgusting the parodied woman is, almost always the idea of the middle-aged or older woman. Even something like "Mrs Brown's Boys" - the whole thing is based that the middle-aged woman is unfeminine and ugly, so much so that she looks "mannish", old-fashioned and repulsive. It's a nasty legacy of the way cultures think about women who are past their "sexy", fertile years and therefore are nags, battleaxes, gossips, caricatures to parody rather than real human women. It's always had its roots in something nasty, sexist, and ageist just as much as sexist, too.

I agree-although I can live in a world that contains Aunt Polly Tumble a lot more easily than one which lauds Anna Bortion and the others
I feel similarly, though have a problematic fondness of panto from my childhood.
The stereotypes for laughs doesn't sit well with me, but then I also think panto as a genre is full of over the top stereotypes. When I was a child I remember Peter Pan being played by a woman. There's also innuendo in panto at times, but at the pantos I've been to it's not been anything that's left me particularly cross, though I'm under no illusions that some performances cross the line and that should be challenged.

The reason I find much of the drag form problematic is becoming it's predominantly focused on mocking women's bodies and women's sexuality.
The other issue that stands out is that if we had a discussion about panto as a genre then we would probably have an interesting discussion, people would agree and disagree, largely respectfully. Discussions about drag seem to quickly turn into telling women to shut up and centre men.

Above* misogyny

Yes exactly ! Gay men love calling women “fish“. People act like gay men are about misogyny because they are gay. Well they’re still men and hold the exact same belief systems that all men do.

It’s a caricature of women. Overly exaggerated makeup, over the top hair and clothes.