Drag and misogyny

But I do recognise that some people find the comparison to blackface to be very insensitive

"And there are some that don't."

@Justhadathought of course there are some people who don't agree with anything we might care to discuss!

"Some people" also might think it's worth considering where we might cause offence to other women & try not to.

There's also a drag show near me that mimics loads of female entertainers - spice girls, Adele etc. I've seen the show and it really feels like the performers are celebrating singers they love

Yes, this is what we're constantly told; that it is mimicry born out of love and appreciation. And the idea that all gay men love a diva - which is an over-blown presentation of a certain kind of stereotypical femininity. It is a huge send up; but most often in sending up in plays into certain reinforcements around gender.

I have a friend that does drag he sees the whole process of changing his appearance as an art form or skill. He's fantastic at it and there's certainly nothing in it to suggest he's mocking women or disgusted by us. There's also a drag show near me that mimics loads of female entertainers - spice girls, Adele etc. I've seen the show and it really feels like the performers are celebrating singers they love.

I've also on holiday seen one that fits the descriptions I've read on here. Mocking this idea of a disgusting hyper sexual woman. I was fairly young and one of the performers on stage slapped me as part of the act. It fucking hurt and I remember feeling the pressure to laugh along as I'm sure it didn't look to the audience like a man slapping a woman but that's what it was.

It's just like a lot of things in life I suppose it's a lot more nuanced than good or bad. Some people do it to celebrate women end some to mock whereas I can't think of any time I've seen black face and thought about the performer 'wow they just love black culture' even the frequently mentioned RD actually gained access to a specific but high profile employment pool through her time impersonating a black woman.

It's a heartwarming tale and I did enjoy the show. I agree that his act probably was a 'celebration' of femininity/womanhood as the argument goes

I'd suggest what it 'celebrates' is not so much womanhood, as the societal focus on the deviant aspects of gay sex; and the idea that gay men are less than men or less than manly ( they are really women/feminine, who are naturally inferior etc).

By emphasising sex and sexuality ( in drag acts) so much, it is supposed to be a big 'fuck off' to social judgements and to the male male rejection of gay men. Problem is, it does that by appropriating the abusive terminology used by men to demean women.

The show encourages us to see how his drag act gives him the confidence to be his true self

I'm going to suggest that it was not so much his " true self" as a parody of what gay men are supposed to be like. The true self lies behind that show. The 'show' is a mediation of social expectations.

The fact that gay culture is abusive towards women means the culture is wrong and must change, not that suddenly abusive attitudes towards women is ok

Drag came about in quite different times, when it was perfectly mainstream to portray sexually active women as 'slags' and so on.

But I do recognise that some people find the comparison to blackface to be very insensitive

And there are some that don't.

But drag queens are not organising and promoting the oppression of woman so it isn't a targeted attack per se

But using terms such as 'slag', 'slapper', 'worn out old hooker' does perpetuate the contemptuous attitude towards female sexuality, and it hurts and offends women who are exposed to it, for the reason women have suffered this kind of abuse, in real life, forever.

Drag has just become a cliche of itself. there is nothing new, and all that remains much of the time is even greater offence as drag artists search for innovation.

Why was Rachel Dolezal heavily criticised for self-identifying as black, yet males self-identifying as women are protected to the extent that anyone challenging their claims gets cancelled?

Why do the same people who would be up in arms over 'cultural appropriation' feel they must support the appropriation of womanhood by men?

Scientifically speaking, there's less difference between Rachel Dolezal and a black woman than there is between a man & a woman.

Totally agree about drag being misogynistic though.

But I do recognise that some people find the comparison to blackface to be very insensitive.

The show encourages us to see how his drag act gives him the confidence to be his true self

But why is 'his true self' not the shy man? Many of us wish we were extroverts but are not and require something (often alcohol) to take us 'out of ourselves'. That doesn't mean being an exhibitionist drunk is 'being our true selves'.

I know several friends whose parents have developed dementia. One feature of early dementia for some is the removal of inhibitions. These elderly parents have become nasty and treat their children appallingly whilst they desperately try to care for them. Is this their 'true self'?

But you know what, it's an act. No one take any of it seriously

Yet it remains very unpalatable for a lot of women......and at the same time does nothing to challenge stereotypes ( which is what we're told it is all about). All it does, I'd suggest, is re-affirm cliches & stereotypes about gay men, and tropes about female sexuality and female bodies.

I suggest it survives, simply, as a relic of gay men's struggles in the past, but has now solidified into a lumbering parody of itself.

I had mixed feelings about it.

On the one hand, there is a bit in the play when the drag queen - can't remember the character's name - appears for the first time out of costume. As a man, he is suddenly very shy and vulnerable, completely different from his diva-like on-stage persona.

The show encourages us to see how his drag act gives him the confidence to be his true self.

It's a heartwarming tale and I did enjoy the show. I agree that his act probably was a 'celebration' of femininity/womanhood as the argument goes.

And yet - even at its best, drag doesn't sit right with me. It's not acceptable to do it for any other class of people that has traditionally been the oppressed/non-dominant class - yet women are fair game.

Tbh when it was in gay clubs ok whatever I know it's a part of gay culture.

That is a bit like saying child marriage is ok because it is part of their culture. Of suttee was ok in India because it is cultural. Or womrn freezing to death in menstrual huts because it is cultural.

The fact that gay culture is abusive towards women means the culture is wrong and must change, not that suddenly abusive attitudes towards women is ok.

but drag queens are not organising and promoting the oppression of woman so it isn't a targeted attack per se.

The concept is not benign if it exploits the belief that women were never fully human in the first place.

Have men ever needed to organise to oppress women?

Oh the Keith lemon link is a 5 sec clip. Where he's got a hideous mask on and is supposed to be Mel b and hahaha 'she' says her genitals smell.

The point in that the view of women is across men. 2D reductive stereotypes. The same 'jokes'. The same attitude.

Tbh when it was in gay clubs ok whatever I know it's a part of gay culture.

Having it mainstream prime time TV is a different matter.

I remember my dad laughing uproariously at 'cupid stunt'. And I didn't like what was in the screen, same as I didn't like it when so much comedy had men 'dressed as women' for laughs. It always made me uncomfortable. When I was 8 I didn't know why. But I always felt it. It's taking the piss out of women. Same as panto. It's bonding over laughing at women.

I know lots of people disagree. 40 years later I still don't like it. Drag race. Lolita. FFS. Yes let's all pretend it has nothing to do with the book. Adult men dressed as little girls for the Lolita challenge or whatever. Yay??!! Family viewing!

Yeah I thought I'll have a look to check it's not changed since I was young. Nope. Worse than I was expecting tbh.

I don't find drag paricularly offensive but I'm mystified about what the point is.

I like a drag Queen act. I like the
Man we see in Greece when we go.

He's offensive, he's risqué and he's a showman.

He's funny. We all know what to expect it's not child friendly.

But you know what, it's an act. No one take any of it seriously.

One of my favourite ever films is Kinky Boots, on the back of that I thought drag was lovely 🤷🏻‍♀️
I know believe it is deeply misogynistic and I do equate it with black face.

We actually agree on something, Quaggars

This post from earlier on is interesting:

VoodooQueenofthebayou Fri 21-May-21 09:21:27
It isn't appropriate to equate it to blackface. If you look into the history of blackface performance in the context of America, it was used as a early tool to dehumanise black people by the Klu Klux Klan and promote the Jim Crow laws. At the back of blackface was the implicit threat of lynching and oppression as a means to control the characters portrayed in blackface shows in the South. It is a deeply sinister and oppressive practice. Sadly ignorance and lack of thinking enabled it to go mainstream on TV shows in the 50s,60s and 70s where it became normalised and socially accepted. Thankfully it has been recognised for what it is.
I don't think you can compare it to drag as it doesn't involve the systematic oppression and removal of civil rights of another group. The argument may be that woman have had to fight for their rights throughout the ages and this is true, but drag queens are not organising and promoting the oppression of woman so it isn't a targeted attack per se.

But the above applies to women, it’s just like that. Drag is the systematic oppression of another group; women, our rights are being removed. I see it as a targeted attack (especially Drag Queen Story Time) They’re not necessarily after you but they are pumping this at your children during prime time mainstream TV where it has become normalised.

Most people just haven’t wised up to it yet or recognised it for what it is.

Sorry for raft of comments.

Occurs to me the following.

Why is it funny for men on a stag or similar to wear dresses etc?

Why is it a thing in gay male culture to caricature a certain stereotype of woman, a set of stereotypes that in general men like to apply to women in general/ categorise and judge us by? And girls too.

Why do so many straight men share 'porn' that is little or nothing to do with sex and everything to do with women being degraded, doing things that are revolting to most, doing things that they are not enjoying.

All of these things are about men bonding over a shared view of women, and it's not a positive one. Bonding over putting women in their place. Over misogyny.