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Original poster

A Belfast court judgment has been hailed by as a “landmark” moment in UK transgender rights by influential campaign group Stonewall.

114 replies

stumbledin · 19/05/2021 15:05

However, a prominent critic of transgender activism has said it looks like a way of introducing a contentious change in the law “through the back door” – rather than via a political route.

www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/belfast-court-trans-judgment-a-major-change-to-the-system-3240452

OP posts:
sanluca · 19/05/2021 15:49

What you're looking for is an increase in the number of incidents. If Self-ID has the effect you think, you'd expect to see an increase in the number of incidents.

Not necessarily. Women could also just take themselves out of the situation.

Can't believe someone is still arguing that women should not have single sex facilities but need to share at all times with any male who wants to.
Yeahbutnaw: it is called boundaries and women have them and transactivists do their best to erode them.

yeahbutnaw · 19/05/2021 15:46

@DaisiesandButtercups

How would anyone know yeahbutnaw?

No-one seems to be recording accurate sex disaggregated data since the definitions of woman and man is now so contentious. Well in countries with self id the terms are now essentially meaningless.

The analysis of such data would likely be even more contentious or if accurately reported and meaningless if reported using self id.

Not to mention the fact that “violence” also appears to have a new definition too.

We must not ask such questions. It upsets certain people. The answer is impossible to know now anyway which was likely the point of the legislation.

Certainly women are suddenly much more likely to be perpetrators of violence, that much we are allowed to know.

Honestly, none of that affects your ability to evidence the claim.

What you're looking for is an increase in the number of incidents. If Self-ID has the effect you think, you'd expect to see an increase in the number of incidents.

The sex of the victim and perpetrator are completely irrelevant to your ability to get this evidence.

Monicuddle · 19/05/2021 15:46

That’s a good question. If we have not seen significant increases in incidents of violence against women, does that mean that trans women do not experience greater rates of violence after all? Has there been a statistically significant decrease in violence against trans people in countries where there is self ID?

If there are increases... is that because some of those extra women are trans and experience more violence than other women, or is it because transwomen (and men) are now freely allowed into women’s spaces, putting women (and transwomen) at heightened risk?

Some clear statistics would indeed be helpful.

ANewCreation · 19/05/2021 15:43

Has there been a statistically significant increase in incidents of violence against women in countries that have Self-ID?

More to the point, has there been a statistically significant increase in incidents of violence by 'women' in countries that have Self-ID?

Evidence from Ireland looks like 'yes'.

yeahbutnaw · 19/05/2021 15:43

@TheFleegleHasLanded

Unsure if you're being obtuse or if that's a genuine question.

I'll assume it's the latter. You don't need to know the gender or sex of the perpetrators to know if there's been a statistically significant increase in the rate of violence against women in countries that have self-ID policies.

For example:

  • 2010: 1,000 incidents.
  • 2011: 1,100 incidents
  • 2012: 1,200 incidents. ...
  • 2015: 1,200 incidents (Self-ID introduced) ...
  • 2021: 1,200 incidents

Do you follow?

DaisiesandButtercups · 19/05/2021 15:43

How would anyone know yeahbutnaw?

No-one seems to be recording accurate sex disaggregated data since the definitions of woman and man is now so contentious. Well in countries with self id the terms are now essentially meaningless.

The analysis of such data would likely be even more contentious or if accurately reported and meaningless if reported using self id.

Not to mention the fact that “violence” also appears to have a new definition too.

We must not ask such questions. It upsets certain people. The answer is impossible to know now anyway which was likely the point of the legislation.

Certainly women are suddenly much more likely to be perpetrators of violence, that much we are allowed to know.

sanluca · 19/05/2021 15:41

@yeahbutnaw

Has there been a statistically significant increase in incidents of violence against women in countries that have Self-ID?
That would mean governments should actually track the consequences of mixed sex facilities at a large scale. Which they don't, except for gender neutral facilities which shows how bad it is for women. And of course all the examples where something bad happens which we are never allowed to state as we are then using one example against the whole group.

Turn it around: prove no man will ever abuse the loophole of self id to attack or spy on women first, then we can talk.

TheFleegleHasLanded · 19/05/2021 15:39

@yeahbutnaw

Has there been a statistically significant increase in incidents of violence against women in countries that have Self-ID?
How would we know as they will have been reported as committed by ‘women’?
MrsOvertonsWindow · 19/05/2021 15:38

Wonder whether the judges had received training from Gendered Intelligence or Stonewall with their preferred versions of the law and the definition of what a woman is ?

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1394632813052321794

yeahbutnaw · 19/05/2021 15:33

Has there been a statistically significant increase in incidents of violence against women in countries that have Self-ID?

VickyEadieofThigh · 19/05/2021 15:23

Removing the need for the conditions as stated does make it absolutely easy for any male to enter women's facilities, etc and declare himself a woman. Nobody can question this.

That the activists (along with judges and a wide range of other people) cannot understand our concerns about this speaks volumes for their contempt for women.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 19/05/2021 15:20

Stories like that show the power of press releases in framing how stories are reported.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 19/05/2021 15:17

And Debbie Hayton steps in to bat it back at them, again!