Feminist pregnancy

It is complicated and I appreciate all the food for thought from this thread.

It was for us, and a number of parents I knew who worked 3-4 days each and shared childcare on their day off. All four of us ended up with full time working dad and mum on a year's maternity after the second pregnancy as we just couldn't afford to live on a part time wage and part time maternity pay. We'd all approached the first time as shared leave etc.

@Forgotthebins and your analogy about the person who does/doesn't get promoted is a really good one. In that situation too there is space to critique the system as a whole for not properly supporting / recognising the needs of the unpromoted person! ;)

"you can increase your odds of having a positive birth but as with anything life/nature might throw you some curveballs and you shouldn't feel bad if your homebirth ends up as an emergency c-section"

It's wordy, but it's useful. If someone had said this to me before I ended up having an unplanned c-section with my first I'd have felt far less sad and guilty after it happened. I did a lot of research/prep but having gone down the NCT route there was not much reassurance or positivity, or indeed preparation in our group for the possibility or likelihood that it might happen (I know that this differs from group to group depending on the practitioner). It should be standard.

@Cannes12 and @Forgotthebins agreed and absolutely. I think the problem with all these things about motherhood is they often get reduced to catchphrases, almost, and people tend to be very attached to the one that describes their own experience? Maybe not quite the right word... but I mean like the breast is best / fed is best dichotomy where the one is very empowering for people who breastfeed and the other matters a lot to people who chose not to or encountered problems that prevented them from doing so. The same with birth I guess: 'it's your choice' can be very empowering but as you say @Forgotthebins 'it's really just down to luck' can help a lot if you have a bad birth experience.

Of course the problem is that reality is a lot more complex but 'breastmilk is the ideal food for a baby, so society should support it a lot more, but formula is also a very very good substitute and no one should be made to feel bad for their choices' doesn't roll off the tongue quite so easily. Nor does 'you can increase your odds of having a positive birth but as with anything life/nature might throw you some curveballs and you shouldn't feel bad if your homebirth ends up as an emergency c-section". But both are more accurate than the 'soundbite' versions.

I wouldn't say maternity units are patriarchal and yes HCPs do for the most part have the best interests of mother and baby at heart. But I do believe that the structures surrounding modern, medicalised birth have patriarchal roots. And that quite a lot of things that HCPs recommend / do with regards to birth, whilst well-intentioned, is rooted in "this is how things have always been done" even when the way things have always been done is based on pretty ropey research. An example I find really fascinating is the partogram, which is the graph used to track progress in labour. The original graph (on which expected progress of women giving birth across the world to this day is based) was made from a 1950s study of 500 women giving birth in hospitals in the US. A Cochrane Review recently concluded that it found insufficient evidence to recommend the partogram as a tool in spontaneous labour. But a woman's progress along it is still used as a diagnostic for whether they 'need' further interventions.

Anyway. I'll stop blethering as it is getting a touch off-topic.

Sorry I should have said that women can have empowering births through a mix of competence and luck, not one or the other. It is definitely worth reading up and taking your midwife/midwives into partnership with you about what “good birth” looks like to you, just don’t be too disappointed if it takes a different shape in the moment. A bit like two people with the same qualifications and experience in two different companies in a recession, one might get promoted and the other made redundant. The one who gets promoted probably thinks it’s all down to their competence, the one who gets made redundant sees that there is an element of luck in all careers. Anyway I won’t derail this lovely thread to what is only one aspect of motherhood. OP I think this shows how even women drawn to the FWR board can disagree so feminism still entails different world views and attitudes so keep us posted on how your own views about feminism and motherhood develop! I feel sure you will chart a great course with your baby given your open and sparky attitude.

I agree with Cannes12. I do not belittle all the work that women do to understand their birth options and prepare - and for women who get to have an empowering birth, it worked for them. But they were lucky not to have a medical emergency where believe me, things move very fast and as with many things in motherhood, we may have fewer choices than we think we will. So not giving yourself a hard time about an unsettling birth, (and if it makes you happier Sassenachs could we agree that some women get empowering births through their competence, and some through luck?) If you have a great birth all is good, but dwelling on an unsettling birth after when the baby is already there may not be helpful. Good counselling to achieve closure in such a case may lead a woman to say “I did nothing wrong, I wasn’t less clever or competent, I was just unlucky” - and that is no judgement on the competence of other women. The important thing then is making the most of what comes after.

I get the spirit of what you're saying @SassenachsWhaHae but I'm personally a little troubled by it. I heard that narrative loud and clear when I was pregnant and so prepared myself for giving birth, what choices I was prepared to make and what I didn't want. But the thing was in the end even with all that preparation, I still had a very traumatic birth. Made more traumatic by trying to assert my thoughts over the opinions of experienced and expert medical professionals.
So OP I'd actually be wary of trying to be the perfect feminist here. You absolutely should make your own choices but don't get too caught up in the 'maternity units are patriarchal' narrative that you don't trust them. They do actually know what they're talking about and have you and your baby's best interests at heart.

For me, being a feminist is about making decisions based upon my wishes and feelings rather than going with what is "expected" of me and also about challenging "the norm."
With my last baby (now almost one), I felt I had the autonomy (and maturity at 39) to make the decisions regarding my pregnancy and birth. My fiancé supported me in all of these choices which really helped.
I had a home birth with minimal midwife intervention, delayed cord clamping, physiological third stage, oral route vit K and so on.
I have honestly never felt as empowred as I did during my labour and birth.
The total polar opposite to my first two NHS births (although my controlling ex-husband definitely played a part here as I expect did my relatively young age).

To elaborate further because I am a total birth geek. I really don't think having a positive birth (not necessarily a "natural" birth!) is just down to luck... indeed I think that sort of narrative is actually quite belittling to the women who fight extremely hard to have a positive birth, whether for them that is an elective C section that they have to hit a hospital over the head with NICE guidelines to have or avoiding being pushed into an induction against their preferences (for example hospitals will often recommend induction for estimated "big babies" despite there being no evidence this improves outcomes). The people I know who have come out of birth saying "that was an empowering experience" (and this charts the whole spectrum from freebirth to C-section in very stressful circumstances) had done a lot of work beforehand learning about risks and rights, and often had to be very firm in the face of a lot of pressure to do things 'the way they are usually done' - which is a way rooted in yes some very valid medical science but also a lot of deeply-rooted misogyny.

There is certainly an element of luck in the form your birth experience can take (i.e. level of assistance needed) but it IS possible to prepare yourself such that you are more likely to have a positive experience.

I should have qualified my post by saying that I meant all pain relief, gas and air included.
I totally understand not wanting an epidural for various reasons, quicker recovery, easier birth, etc.
I had just gas and air with all 3 of my labours, and I felt pressured to not even use that, the midwife thought that I was using too much, even though I was labouring well, wasn’t going doolally from it or anything. I just don’t understand why they don’t want you to have whatever you need to get through it.

I guess I find myself wanting to smash the patriarchy at the expense of my own needs.

If there's a time in your life to put your own needs above everything else then that is now! I kind of see that as two fingers up to the patriarchy.

Little things like if you know what kind of birth you like, stick to your guns and be prepared to be assertive when necessary. Obviously for medical reasons it may not go as you would ideally want but the patriarchy doesn't want women to be assertive so do it! 😁

Also, be confident in making the right choices for you, if you want pain relief then go for it. If you don't, then do that! And also don't let the judgements others will make get to you.

Do what is right for you and your family. Cantering your own happiness and putting yourself and your needs first when you are bringing a new life in the world seems like a pretty feminist thing to do, to me anyway.

You become public property when pregnant or parenting a younger child. What you eat, drink or do. Then it’s what the child eats, drinks or (shits in) does.

I don’t know how you can revolt against it. I’m not sure it’s the patriarchy aside from the medicalisation of birth side, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, and parental leave.

There’s definitely a sense of competition around birth. My first was with epidural and narrowly avoided assistance. I felt awful about it until the second was the perfect, drug free home birth - I did not enjoy it and would recommend an epidural to everyone, they’re amazing.

When the baby comes do what you want to do. Sod everyone else’s opinions. You may love it or you may not, and that’s ok. Being able to choose is the most feminist motherhood.

"We don’t have as much choice as we think we do, and sometimes the best choice within the circumstances may not be the one we thought we would make beforehand. In the moment, just do what feels right and happy. The political fights will all still be going on when you come out of the baby bubble, but your newborn will only be newborn once, and whether those early months are all joy, all hard, or most likely a mix of both, it is being present and in the moment that gets you through the tough bits and makes the good bits glow."

Excellent and wise advice from forgotthebins.
And I completely agree with Sassenachs on this:

"I also strongly believe that patriarchal culture has put us in a very fucked up place regarding birth and our attitudes towards women's bodies and instincts when giving birth."

Give birth like a feminist by Milli hill is excellent, really opened my eyes to the history of childbirth and how maternity care was/is still very influenced by the patriarchy.

For me I wanted a "natural birth" because I'd previously had a bad hospital experience where I felt out of control. I didn't want my comfort to be reliant on another person, I needed a degree of self sufficiency at this vulnerable time. I also did hypnobirthing and my births were natural - ish (no epidural but did have pethidine). I'm terrible with pain usually, but I am glad I did childbirth like this. It was an incredible buzz and an important thing for me to do, purely for myself. Sure "you don't get a medal etc" and I'd never push this on anyone or think badly of anyone who planned to get all the pain relief going. But I'm really grateful my approach was allowed by the NHS midwives, that I wasn't urged into more medicalisation to speed the process up. I write this just to demonstrate it is a much more nuanced issue than is sometimes presented.

I also went into parenthood with lovely ideals about shared leave. Reality is paying the rent in London needed the man's wage. Even though the man was younger than me working a job with far less responsibilities, he earned so much more. It sucks - breastfeeding and birthing aside, he's the natural nurturing one too.

I think if I was starting at the beginning again I'd tell myself that it's ok to pause and be a mother. Someone has to nurture your child full time until they start school. If you or a relative don't do it all, you will also pay someone. It is the most important job in the world, whoever ends up doing it. Society doesn't think so, but society is a patriarchal mess where rape is practically legal, so why do we listen to society on parenting?

If you end up doing more of the care than you imagined, make sure your partner isn't consciously or subconsciously devaluing you and the work that care entails. (If they don't see it as work, book a few days away and let them enjoy hiring your replacement.)

The thing is, pregnancy, birth and the post natal period are not equal. Women bear the brunt.
The feminist ideal in this situation is not to pretend men and women play the same or equal roles. It's for men, workplaces, society to support women as much as possible and allow them to make their own choices.
Stop thinking you need to learn about feminism, you are pregnant and have enough to think about.
All that you need to do to be a good feminist is make the right choices for yourself, without being swayed by others' expectations of you and expect and demand high levels of support from others such as your partner, medical professionals etc.
You must also not judge other women for their choices.
Some women like thinking they are part of the mummy club and buy cook books for mummies. That's fine. It's their choice.
Whether you want to go back to work when baby is 2 days old or become a SAHM forever, it's fine.
The feminism comes from making that choice for yourself and not judging other women for their choices. That's all.

Having a baby is one of those times when it becomes clear that your biology really matters, and whether or not you feel that's fair, it's the way things are. Women are affected very differently in the early days after having a baby, and in my experience all the more so with the first child.

There is a lot out there about things pregnant women are meant to be interested in. The thing is, a lot of them are interested, and that's ok. If they want to research cots or whatever or read baby food cookbooks, why not? You don't have to do it. Most dad's aren't that interested, and that is also ok.

The stuff about don't eat this or that is really annoying, and most of it is pretty bollocks. It's part of a more general trend where people can't make reasonable risk assessments, so even a slightly elevated risk, which is still tiny, is seen as something to get excited about. (On of the funnier things is that they will not give you the same advice in every country.)

Chances are your roles in terms of work in the home and such will change, maybe just for a short time, but maybe for longer. The thing is everyone contributes. Some times you will have more time when your partner is busy, sometimes the other way round. And almost certainly at the beginning you will find he just has a lot more freedom. Which can seem maddening, but there isn't much point to being mad about it.

The only other thing I will say is that men seem to take longer to really "feel" fatherhood, in qute the same way women feel motherhood. It's powerfully horomone driven for us - so much so that in many cases it stops us getting the help we should or taking breaks when we should. Men feel some of this but it is a longer transition. Watching all the men I know, I think it can take them a good six months to adjust.

I understand OP, I felt very much the same as you before my first child. If I could talk to myself then, I would say “don’t feel you have to fight every political fight this year, don’t set goals or make this a personal challenge, and enjoy seeing the world as something new. Oh and stay away from Mummy groups on social media, they will poke your vulnerabilities like flaming rods of hot iron.”

A lot of what people say worked for them is just luck, so be prepared for surprises. You might have to surprise people around you but you might also surprise yourself. For example the posters above saying they opted for natural birth because they wanted quick recoveries without intervention - well everyone wants a quick recovery without intervention! But anything can happen when birth starts. Those posters were lucky, while I and many others were not, the “choices” we made were shaped by our circumstances. Same with whether you can share the tasks equally around the household, or breastfeed, or any of the other hot button topics. We don’t have as much choice as we think we do, and sometimes the best choice within the circumstances may not be the one we thought we would make beforehand. In the moment, just do what feels right and happy. The political fights will all still be going on when you come out of the baby bubble, but your newborn will only be newborn once, and whether those early months are all joy, all hard, or most likely a mix of both, it is being present and in the moment that gets you through the tough bits and makes the good bits glow.

At least that is what I would say to myself a few years ago if I could meet her now.

There are few other medical (using the term lightly) experiences where that pressure to be knowledgeable exists.

But the main reason birth is treated as a "medical experience" is because the patriarchy didn't like something which was the purview of women alone and so slowly but surely brought childbirth under the eye of male doctors, in hospitals.

I'm not saying modern hygiene standards haven't had an enormous impact on maternal / infant mortality, nor that there are some women for whom medical assistance is vitally necessary and many others for whom the pain relief is a very valid preference. But I also strongly believe that patriarchal culture has put us in a very fucked up place regarding birth and our attitudes towards women's bodies and instincts when giving birth. Read Milli Hill's Give Birth Like a Feminist and then if you want to dive deeper down the rabbit hole read Rachael Reed's Reclaiming Childbirth as a Rite of Passage. The deeper you dig the more shocked you'll become, particularly about the incredibly flimsy evidence on which many very standard procedures and interventions are based.

I don't know where I fit in with a feminist pregnancy! I wasn't actually working when I had my DC so obviously myself and my ex didn't share parental leave- for me personally this isn't something I would have wanted to do- I wanted to stay at home with them. To me though, a 'feminist' choice would be doing what works best for each woman as an individual. If that is staying at home with their baby, fine, if that's going back to work and sharing parental leave, also equally fine, there should be no judgement either way. I think there needs to be more recognition that maternity leave isn't just a jolly and it is necessary for many women in order to physically recover from pregnancy/childbirth, and establish feeding.

When it comes to pregnancy and birth, feminism has such an important role to play in fighting for the rights of women. I really feel like women are treated like complete idiots so much of the time. Women are denied perfectly reasonable requests such as ELCS on a regular basis or have to jump through hoops to access them. Women should be respected and supported by medical professionals to have the birth they want, as far as is reasonably possible. So support for natural birth for those who want it, support for ELCS too. Stop all the moral judgement- this also needs to include feeding as well. Support should be there for both breastfeeding and bottle feeding alike. The judgement on bottle feeding that exists at times is disgusting, and so is the lack of breastfeeding support.

Now I'm a single parent I have a whole load of issues around parenting and feminism- ex is useless, it is me by default who does all the actual parenting, the vast majority of time is spent with me (in honesty I wouldn't change this though), it is me who has to consider childcare around working etc. It's sexist- financially I'll be worse off and my career is affected more. It's wrong on so many levels. But I don't make much noise about it because I want my DC with me as much as possible.

I did hypnobirthing and found it very empowering (for lack of a better word) and reassuring.
I was quite anxious about labour and the birth, like I'm sure a lot of first time mums are, and it gave me the confidence to trust my instincts & body.

I have to say despite the reputation it often has my NCT leader was amazing and covered everything from hypnobirthing to tens to epidural and caesarians in an informative not preachy way.

I do agree that some attitudes to hypnobirthing and water/home births have turned a bit into the breast-fed Vs formula debate where it is used as another stick to beat those deemed "not good enough" . This may even be women thinking this about themselves, when they have an idea of what they want to happen and the reality ends up different. They see it as failure because it didn't live up to their carefully researched plans.

On the other hand there are cases where birth probably has been over medicalised and women directed into interventions they could have done without (e.g. C-sections in Brazil, stirrups, preemptive episiotomies as standard) . From that perspective the move towards 'natural' and midwife led births is a move towards female empowerment and autonomy over their births and can be viewed as feminist.

I used both - the hypnobirthing to get me through early labour at home and got an epidural at the 11th hour as I was exhausted. Zero regrets and I think they are bloody amazing and was singing their praises for months after!

Really interesting thread! I know exactly what you mean OP and have had similar thoughts.

Just to share my experience- my husband and I took shared parental leave at the same time following the birth. I took 6 months off, he took 4 months (3 of my remaining mat leave plus paternity/couple of weeks of annual leave). We were incredibly lucky to be able to manage this as of course we both took the financial hit at the same time- a combination of low mortgage due to an inheritance, decent enhanced leave and savings just about saw us through but it was really important to us that as we could start our parenting journey together, we should.

It was amazing! PPs are right I was 'on point' with the baby a hell of a lot in the early days as my little one was exclusively bf, but having my husband there all day to take care of pretty much everything else in practical terms was fantastic and I swear I would have developed PND without his support. He also took the baby whenever he could and she developed a great bond with him right from day one. We could both do the nights (me feeding, him doing nappy and re-swaddle plus any rocking required) because we could both sleep in the day. But the best thing was having someone else to talk to and to chat things over the second you had a worry or weren't sure what to do. It's really set the tone for our whole parenting journey- there is zero element of me being the 'default parent' because we have both always been equally responsible. We both returned three days a week and have just increased to four, with grandparents and now nursery doing the rest.

This is all very braggy but my point is that I am so bloody grateful, by a set of fortunate coincidences, that we were able to do this - and so angry that such an experience isn't possible for most mothers or indeed fathers. There is no doubt in my mind that we need better paternity packages so that all couples can experience what we did if they wish, and it's clearly possible looking at what other countries offer. I really think that the cost would be offset by improvements in women's mental health and outcomes for children meaning that resources wouldn't be needed in other areas. But - patriarchy! SPL is great for those who can manage it, I just hope it I a paving stone to a fairer system in the end.

Absolutely with the policing of bodies. I had hyperemesis with my son and I could barely eat anything at all and I certainly couldn’t just eat the super healthy foods I wanted to be eating.
A co worker turned up her nose and asked very pointedly “is THAT your lunch? Not very healthy, is it” - I was so annoyed and upset. I was vomiting multiple times a day and my doctor had told me that eating anything I could keep down was more important than eating healthy and still I was made to feel shitty.