Should MN have a Gender Identity (or similar) subsection?

I’ve been a feminist all my life and would love not to discuss trans issues on this board. Here’s my experience. Having experienced absolutely horrible sex and pregnancy discrimination relatively early in my career (academia, so I was not exactly young!) I worked hard to improve the position of women in my department. Eventually we established a committee to focus on women. It was designed to look at the challenges women face and see what could be done to share the work and pay more equitably between the men and women in the department. Good. About one year in – a rather unpleasant, relatively senior man in the department, a professor, declared that he was non-binary, and therefore deserved a seat at the table. Worth noting: this man had enjoyed massive male privilege all through his career and had never to the best of anyone’s knowledge ever committed an act that might be considered as pro any of the women in the department. Oh well, no one wants to be a dinosaur, so into the women’s group he comes. Now, two years down the line, it is filled with handmaidens and all they are concerned about is teaching the rest of us that ‘sex is not binary’, writing up purity declarations, and enforcing pronouns in signatures. Pay and workload have slipped off the agenda. The one place where we could focus on sex discrimination in our workplace has been completely undermined. I’d love to talk about the gender pay gap like I used to. We quite literally no longer have the space to do this!

Are there many trans, NB people in the UK? I would agree that there are very few. This man is the only NB person that I know. AND YET, this one person, armed with an extremely powerful ideology, has eviscerated our attempts to take feminist action.

That's why gender identity is all over the mumsnet feminist board. You can't 'do' feminism if you can't define what a woman is and keep men and believers in queer theory out. We wish it were otherwise, we really do.

This topic comes up every now and then. Posters complain that the threads in FWR are not to their taste but don't want to start any new threads which are.

It's curious.

But that's my point isn't it? I have already said I don't want to come here to talk about trans issues all the time so I don't come here as often anymore. I am hardly going to bother running off to find examples when I have been here before and know no matter how many examples I find I will just be ignored and belittled and assumed to be anti-gc or worse, even though that isn't true.

posting repeatedly about how Jordan Peterson is brilliant for womens rights.

I don't think the majority do say that. Although I am personally a fan of Jordon Peterson ☺️

I am not going to pick out examples because its exhausting and boring

Okay. 😉

Across the board, feminist issues are discussed, everywhere from AIBU to relationships to chat, law and work issues. In general MN is woman discussing issues that affect them, as woman, so I find feminism is everywhere.

The feminist board does have a lot of trans related posts, but that’s not to say you won’t find feminist posts about other subjects. They’re on FWR as well as lots of others areas on MN.

I am not going to pick out examples because its exhausting and boring.

Re:MRAs I honestly think it's far more laughable that some posters think that they have just gone off to bother other people rather than being here posting repeatedly about how Jordan Peterson is brilliant for womens rights.

Siloing women further in a specialist section is presumably intended to ensure that fewer people see and read what's going on here and would be easier to pick off

Without a doubt. Otherwise why would one need to change a popular forum with plenty of traffic. Rather than asking for an alternative section. I'm not sure why women here should have to be moved over / asked to post elsewhere because a few don't like the topics discussed here. I would question the motives behind that.

It's to be expected that while national charities, in receipt of large amounts of government funding, are actively lobbying to change language and laws that have a direct impact on women, that this stealth activity would become a focus for feminists. There are very few other places where women can gather to discuss this - which serves those charities brilliantly, particularly since they've captured so many institutions, the existence of FWR really sticks in their craw. Siloing women further in a specialist section is presumably intended to ensure that fewer people see and read what's going on here and would be easier to pick off - imagine the moral outrage. As per pp's suggestion why don't you set up your own Lib Fem board with guidelines not to talk about some of the most relevant issues affecting women today.

It's one thing if there's a group of like-minded posters who ASK for a specialist sub heading under which to discuss their particular interest/issue, but it's quite another to shove them into a corner ... just because you're a bit fed up listening to them and want to be able to ignore them in peace.

Whereas, for example, what can I write about that poor woman who died after being sexually assaulted in hospital? "That's bloody awful, how did that happen, what can we do?

Well yes, you can just write that to start off a discussion if you don't know what else you want to say. That's how conversations start. If there's other things you want to talk about, and you think it should be in feminism then just give it a try and see what happens.

You might even find some posters will help you campaign for an additional board if you ask. It's the expectation that this board should be the one that moves out in order to make room that feels a little bit fucking rude.

Whereas, for example, what can I write about that poor woman who died after being sexually assaulted in hospital? "That's bloody awful, how did that happen, what can we do?" about sums it up, it's the same thing I can type about lots of horrific misogynistic things that are happening right now. It's a lot harder problem to dissect and DO anything about. I do love it when people make me aware of new issues and campaign groups or practical groups about things I can contribute to and engage with directly. But when it's yet another "this man has done something awful to this woman" or "look how bad these women have it" I feel a bit helpless, so my engagement is different. (But these threads are very very welcome). If it's an area I have direct experience of, I'll have more to say - but not so much it's outing.

Have you asked on site stuff thermal?

Or were you trying to see potential uptake first

No I haven't seen anyone demand that threads centre GC feminism. As for not many responses, well it depends on the topic and whether it's of interest to people. If it's not, then not that many will post. Obviously. Same as the whole of mumsnet really. There's no obligation to post on topics if we don't want to / are not interested in it. Etc.

But if you turn up here and start a thread that's not about gender criticism you'll get hardly any responses or someone will turn up and demand you centre gender criticism in your approach to the issue.

Can you link to some examples please, sushiGo? I genuinely haven't seen this. Maybe the odd oblique reference or snarky comment but no-one demanding GC is prioritised? I don't even know what that would look like?

It’s like being stuck at a dinner party surrounded by racists ranting on about how right they are, It’s just so hateful and I think it stands against everything that feminism should be about

You think women discussing women's rights and safeguards and how to protect them are similar to racists? Well I think that attitude is pretty hateful too.

If we can't define sex or the word woman we have no way of fighting for our rights. FEMinism is for and about FEMales.

There will, I devoutly hope, come a time when women don't have to fight for the right to define our sex class. Then, with huge relief, I'll abandon the topic. Until then it's by far my greatest priority as a feminist.

Instead of trying to change a very well frequented and much needed board, why don’t people who feel alienated by the gender critical posts campaign for an Intersectional Feminism Board

Great idea. A bit like the idea of a third space. Should keep everyone happy and meet their needs shouldn't it.

“It’s not that I find the GC talk overwhelming. I find it genuinely disturbing. It’s like being stuck at a dinner party surrounded by racists ranting on about how right they are, It’s just so hateful and I think it stands against everything that feminism should be about.

Talking about women's oppression and legal rights as a sex "stands against what feminism should be about"? How very odd. I don't think you have a very good idea of what feminism means.

Well I do realise that as I am just one person. I do wonder if the regular posters from 5 or 10 years ago are still here now

Yep. I'm still here. After many name changes. Been here since about 2007/2008.

I also get pissed off about people on here slagging off "wokeness" etc because it makes me feel like I'm reading the Daily Mail and feels really crass to do this ignoring the term's origin in anti-racism campaigns. But that's another issue.

I agree with you here, though - but my interpretation of 'woke' as 'politically aware' applies to us lot - I don't tend to use it as an insult, it's an important term/concept - but that's probably for another thread!

I think it is incorrect and disingenuous to say there are very few discussions about most feminist issues, and tonnes and tonnes about trans/gender identity issues

actually it is the other way round. Very few discusions about "gender identify issues" and tonnes and tonnes of discussion about women's rights.

This is such a common misconception. Being pro women is not anti trans.