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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Ladies and Gents loos to return!

71 replies

Theluggage15 · 15/05/2021 23:12

In the Telegraph: Return of ladies and gents lavatories, as ministers tell architects all new buildings must have separate facilities
Buildings which already had unisex lavatories, which are shared by men and women, also face having to install partitions.

‘These changes will help to maintain safeguards that protect women and the proper provision of separate toilets, which has long been a regulatory requirement, will be retained and improved.‘

Apologies I don’t know how to do share tokens. This is great news!

OP posts:

Pota2 · 16/05/2021 10:16

@Justhadathought

I reckon if the cisgendered (male and female) were asked about gender neutral (unisex) toilets you would get few people preferring them

I really don't think so. Gender neutral is another way of saying mixed sex.

I cannot even imagine sure why you might even consider this this be true, certainly for women?

Why don’t you think people don’t like unisex toilets? I think women in particular don’t like them. Are you saying you think most prefer to share facilities with men?

Unsure33 · 16/05/2021 10:06

Very encouraging words from baroness Faulkner in the DM today .

Looks like common sense may be returning.

“Women can challenge transgender activism “

Justhadathought · 16/05/2021 10:02

If you look at the queue outside of the women's toilet ( in France), even though there is a mixed sex one readily available, you will realise how much women do not feel comfortable in mixed sex facilities:

Justhadathought · 16/05/2021 09:58

But it is important that trans people also have safe and appropriate toilets, so I would hope there would be some gender neutral provision as well

There could be a couple of mixed sex toilets for those that prefer them or who are happy to use them.

YourSexNotGenderIsOnFire · 16/05/2021 09:57

This is good news for a friend of mine who’s just found out that her new office buildings only have gender neutral loos.

But if it's an office the U.K. that's illegal under health and safety rules already Theluggage15, unless they are self-contained rooms.
www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/toilets.htm

Anyway, I'm delighted by this news. I like in Wokesville and there are several restaurants that I would go to but they have decided to convert their women's and men's toilets into gender-neutral with/without urinals. The result is that I just don't go out to those places. I tried emailing one and they basically didn't care about safeguarding or my history of sexual assault and told me to use the disabled loo

PicsInRed · 16/05/2021 09:57

Hopefully being forced to divert part of their budget to building works to reinstate the perfectly fine men's and women's loos they already previously had...will focus some minds against ever repeating any such foolishness.

Justhadathought · 16/05/2021 09:56

I reckon if the cisgendered (male and female) were asked about gender neutral (unisex) toilets you would get few people preferring them

I really don't think so. Gender neutral is another way of saying mixed sex.

I cannot even imagine sure why you might even consider this this be true, certainly for women?

Justhadathought · 16/05/2021 09:53

I am extremely pleased with this govt decision but I also have the nagging doubt mentioned here by RedDogsBeg

One step at a time. It will not all happen over-night. This is going to be long haul.

newnortherner111 · 16/05/2021 09:47

I would not celebrate yet. Only new buildings, not conversions, and given the government record of not considering enforcement, I wonder what the penalties will be? A token fine perhaps?

Starting with all government buildings old and new where this does not apply would set an example.

Heidi1982 · 16/05/2021 09:42

I wonder if they'll start with the "gender neutral" (aka mixed sex) toilets in Robert Jenrick's department's central London offices?

IvyTwines2 · 16/05/2021 09:40

@ChristinaXYZ

And I look forward to seeing builders setting about the loos in the Old Vic in particular.

And so many other arts venues, where the women's toilets were changed to entirely mixed sex, with no consultation, no consent given, and a 'no means yes' attitude which is, sadly, entirely in keeping with the institutional misogyny we see everywhere in the Arts through the stories emerging with the #metoo hashtag.

ArabellaScott · 16/05/2021 09:28

Wow. Great news. All we need now is for it to be made clear that 'ladies' is for females and 'gents' is for males.

Pota2 · 16/05/2021 09:24

@MidsomerMurmurs

I would hope there would be some gender neutral provision as well

Wouldn't it be better just to refer to sex? Single sex toilets, with a mixed-sex toilet available for anyone who wants to use it. What on earth does 'gender' (which nobody is able to define without going round in circles and falling back on sex-based regressive stereotypes of dress or behaviour) have to do with this?

Well I don’t really care what they call it. It’s the fact that it’s available that’s the issue. Unisex is fine with me.

MarshaBradyo · 16/05/2021 09:17

@Beamur

That's good news. I reckon if the cisgendered (male and female) were asked about gender neutral (unisex) toilets you would get few people preferring them. But it is important that trans people also have safe and appropriate toilets, so I would hope there would be some gender neutral provision as well.

A shame ‘cis’ keeps creeping in on here.

MidsomerMurmurs · 16/05/2021 09:11

I would hope there would be some gender neutral provision as well

Beamur · 16/05/2021 08:53

That's good news.
I reckon if the cisgendered (male and female) were asked about gender neutral (unisex) toilets you would get few people preferring them.
But it is important that trans people also have safe and appropriate toilets, so I would hope there would be some gender neutral provision as well.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 16/05/2021 08:49

@Ifyourefeelingsinister

Well this is good news, but I wonder if it will apply in Scotland, or are we a lost cause up here?

I suspect this will cause the SNP to accelerate provision of mixed sex toilets to demonstrate how much more progressive Scotland is

Triphazards · 16/05/2021 08:47

@RedDogsBeg

I hope so, but I want an explicit and unequivocal statement from the Government that toilets are segregated on the basis of sex, not gender, and that must be used according to biological sex.

Look on the bright side.

At least that's possible, when sex segregated toilets actually exist.

Original poster

Theluggage15 · 16/05/2021 08:40

Apparently the rules will also apply to offices, shops and entertainment venues as well as public buildings. This is good news for a friend of mine who’s just found out that her new office buildings only have gender neutral loos. She was telling me that she was going to drink as little as possible during the day so she could avoid using them.

The article also has the quote that the government listened to the concerns raised by women and the elderly about their security, dignity and safety. Well that makes a nice change, women actually being consulted and heard!

OP posts:

PaleBlueMoonlight · 16/05/2021 08:38

You definitely should try, ifyouarefeelingsinister. I expect the rules will only apply in England, but you can still use them and the reasoning behind them to challengé Edinburgh’s decision.

Ifyourefeelingsinister · 16/05/2021 08:04

My local council has just announced a £5 million refurbishment of public toilets, and yes, they will be gender neutral aka mixed sex: www.google.com/amp/s/www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-council-confirms-5m-toilets-20513536.amp

Wonder if I can challenge this on the basis of this new government initiative?

Ifyourefeelingsinister · 16/05/2021 08:01

Well this is good news, but I wonder if it will apply in Scotland, or are we a lost cause up here?

AnyOldPrion · 16/05/2021 07:56

Another quotation from the Vice article:

”In the past, the government has been accused of the weaponising trans issue to win votes in swing seats. In 2019, shortly before the December election in which the Conservatives won numerous “red wall” seats, Pink News reported that the government had been polling “culture war” issues like trans rights to see whether it would win the party votes”

Wish the Labour Party would carry out some research to find out what the general public and their constituents actually want, instead of continuing to push their holier-than-thou agenda. Imagine accusing a political party of weaponisation because it tried to find out what people feel about important and contentious issues!

DdraigGoch · 16/05/2021 07:54

[quote ChristinaXYZ]I'm pleased to see Lord Lucas (who helped bring so much attention this by speaking in the Lords) already starting to hold the government to account

twitter.com/LordLucasCD/status/1393692717004251138[/quote]
This is why we should not be too quick to abolish the hereditary peers. We don't want them replaced with a bunch of back-scratching "yes men".

PaleBlueMoonlight · 16/05/2021 07:49

@RedDogsBeg

I hope so, but I want an explicit and unequivocal statement from the Government that toilets are segregated on the basis of sex, not gender, and that must be used according to biological sex.

Yes, but these are two separate (though related) issus in my mind. We are losing single sex palaces precisely because organisations don’t want to have to face up to the ethical and practical problems of self-ID, combined with a different (but again related) strand of [“progressive”. often contradictory] thinking that is saying we don’t need single sex spaces anymore.

We need single sex provision and therefore we need the infrastructure to allow for it. In a lot of settings the problems caused by self-ID are negligible and having single sex provision will do its job of providing dignity, privacy and safety. There does of course remain the [bigger] battle over the definition of single sex, but we need to hold the line over single sex provision in order for there to be any point to that conversation.

In my view, this is unequivocally great news. Was this the result of that consultation on technical matters? In which case congratulations to anyone who contributed.

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