Agoraphobic mum-to-be forced to go to hospital for the birth

@NiceGerbil

I think that's very plausible - have never suffered with it myself and wouldn't say I'm actually suffering from it now, but Lordy, the first few steps I took outside after a few weeks of lockdown gave me the merest hint of that sort of fear and I had to really force myself to get over it. I can't imagine how horrendous it is for genuine sufferers. The more I was "encouraged" to take those first steps, the less I wanted to do it - I really had to do it in my own time. If it had been suggested I should be forced against my will, I'd probably still be locked in the bathroom tbh.

I'm rather on the side of better support being put in place

Someone upthread suggested that with lockdown agoraphobia may have become more common, which feels possible to me.

A very distressing case indeed.

But let's get this straight - we have two similar cases - one in February and one ruled on in May both regarding agoraphobic mothers to be? is this perhaps rather more common than one might have thought? Genuinely interested if anyone knows or other similar cases.

Chill out?

What an odd comment.

There have been 2 comments that I've seen that seem to imply that women with serious MH issues -but not so serious they are in hosp etc- should not be having boyfriends or getting pregnant.

How can she look after a baby.

All we know is what's in the article. Her mother and partner support her and yet even the idea that they might help and support the baby will be fine is met with dismissal.

I find that strange.

Some women have mental health episodes in their lives. PND is common and can be serious. Some women become very disabled due to sudden accident or injury.

Loads of families cope with all sorts of situations.

Seem to be some very hard line and unnuanced views on here. None of us know what's really going on at all.

The assumptions made by some are interesting.

All the woman needs is reliable support. That should be arranged by therapy services. She must be more scared than anyone! However, her having a baby, which I agree is a surprising outcome, may be a turning point for her. Agoraphobia is a dreadful affliction and those with it long to lead a normal life, they spend so much time in fear about some things that might happen, and some that definitely will.

I think the judge has made the right decision in this difficult case. I hope the safety of the child is ensured once its born. Maybe it should be taken into care immediately if there is not enough support from relatives.

Well possibly @NiceGerbil but possibly if she is acrophobic the partner has to work and it's not really down to grandmothers to have to care for babies is it? Maybe she has her own life, job, other responsibilities ?

Gerbil, chill out a bit fs.

Her partner and her mother may give her a little bit of a hand, possibly?!

I'm more concerned she's having a baby. How is she going to cope?

'He concluded that "proportionate" force could be used by specially-trained staff if she refused to leave home on a specified day near her due date.'

Yes good point I really really hope that you are right.

I just don't really trust the authorities to look after women and children generally tbh. So much stuff over and over in the news for years has left me cynical.

I would guess that a "planned delivery" means either induction or c-section - it seems unlikely they would keep her in hospital for weeks.

The judgement that she can be removed from her home using proportionate force (whatever that means when your nearing your due date) to the hospital when she is near due date. Meaning potentially being kept there for weeks. Is back on the table then.

So the arguments I made at the start of the thread still stand for me.

'How has this poor lady ended up in a relationship and become pregnant?'

Why wouldn't she?
Maybe she's been with him since before she became ill!

That comment is really odd.

[quote MissBarbary]Celia Kitzinger is wading in on this case and it's clear from her tweets this is a different case.

Kitzinger is miffed she wasn't allowed to be an observer.

mobile.twitter.com/KitzingerCelia/status/1393069200223227906[/quote]
Some of those tweets seem to be forgetting that this a real person, annoyed that her medical risk and full MH hasn't been disclosed so they can make judgement on social media. I do agree that the potential implications are far reaching, but I hate the social media stance that people become public property once embroiled in something like this. I wonder if midwives can refuse to attend a home birth as an individual if they deem the risk to be too high?

Celia Kitzinger is wading in on this case and it's clear from her tweets this is a different case.

Kitzinger is miffed she wasn't allowed to be an observer.

mobile.twitter.com/KitzingerCelia/status/1393069200223227906

Justice Holman, of the Family Division of the High Court, gave the ruling May 13, although details of the woman and the National Health Service (NHS) hospital involved were not released due to legal reasons

It isn't just oh agoraphobic so doesn't like leaving the house it will be fine to drag her in, they will have made the assessment, and the bar is pretty high for being deemed to not have capacity. Possibly in this scenario its because they deem the all consuming fear of leaving the house to be too great to consider the information to make an informed decision. The scan was down at home which shows as far as reasonably possible it seems they have facilitated. I'm guessing a lot find it more emotive as there is a baby involved, but it isn't that unusual for people with extreme MH conditions to be either denied or forced into treatment- my neighbour has a court order for a monthly injection of her medication which is enforced if she doesn't wish to comply, or electrode therapy is scarily still used, and often the person has zero choice. Imo its part of a wider debate, rather than woman having no autonomy over her choices.

Okay, I struggle to leave my house for anxiety reasons, I rarely do but I obviously can when I have to. I also wanted a home birth but it didn’t end up happening and I needed to be induced in hospital anyway, I’m not sure this mother is in the right. If she can’t leave her house then what’s to happen if the baby is born and needs critical care or whatever, will she just stay in her home while baby is whisked away? What if she needs help will she simply refuse to leave? Being in the hospital is about the baby and unfortunately for the mother once that baby is ready to be born it has rights and I don’t think she should risk the child because of her own mental health issues and I say this as someone with plenty of issues myself.

This is probably a hugely complex situation.

Nails do you feel that way about all medical procedures on the NHS?

Irrespective of the any patients medical history, situation, mental state. Everyone should get what is cheapest in whatever way is most cost effective for the NHS and irrespective of the needs of the individual patient and and potential impacts on them, their families etc.

How far do you want to go?.
It's cheaper to amputate a limb with a saw on the ward than give them an anaesthetic and take up an operating room. That's the way it used to be done.

I'm sure you have a line in your save money at all costs plan.

I have a feeling it might be anything which isn't to do with giving birth. Maybe 'cosmetic' procedures as well? Reproductive health maybe. That sort of thing.

When you start picking and choosing which patients get treated according to their situation and which get what they're given even if it has massive repurcussions... Then it's heading to a pretty bad place.

Birth and post natal care are already treated really weirdly and to the detriment of lots of women.

I sometimes feel a bit impatient with "x has the right to [ ]". The other side of a right is a responsibility but no one seems to mention that.

I think the case shared by BettyBag is a different case.

To whoever said that if someone wants a home birth they should pay for it - home births are cheaper for the NHS than hospital deliveries whether vaginal or caesarean.

This case sounds horrific for all involved. I hope in the coming months more information is made available about circumstances to reassure women that a precedent regarding capacity is not being set - women can and do disengage with maternity services entirely (as is their right to do so) due to fear of such things happening. Missing out on vital antenatal care could be a question of life or death for women as in the example above for cases of placenta previa. My hope is that the case has been well scrutinised and the correct decision made, but that other women aren’t scared away from maternity services. I’m all for freebirthing if you make an informed choice to do it but if it’s a choice made out of fear then I don’t think it’s safe.

I must say, reading that decision - even though it doesn't seem to relate to this case - I really do not envy judges having to make that sort of decision for other people.