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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can you be a true feminist if you...?

165 replies

Dontknowowt · 10/05/2021 23:06

Basically marry a rich partner
so you can give up work?

My mum was raised solely by her dad in 70'a (basically because her mum had a affair and literally buggered off one day). He was remarkable - working at least 2 jobs at a time whenever he could to put food on the table for his five kids. It was a very unusual situation back then.

My mum raised me to work hard so I could get a career and be self-sufficient as she saw how important that was for her dad and ultimately their family e.g. you don't know what's around the corner in any marriage.

Do you think a lot of people just go through their lives ultimately planning to rely on someone else financially?

It just doesn't sit easy with me.

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Dontknowowt · 11/05/2021 07:18

@BelleClapper I didn't for one second say all women - I said "some."

My partner (a man) didn't get any qualifications not because he didn't want to, but because he became ill.

I totally understand there are different circumstances.

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SelkieBe · 11/05/2021 07:17

Yes, because you can see the bigger picture and understand that you are one 'case'

BelleClapper · 11/05/2021 07:15

I don’t have many qualifications or much earning power, not because I’m lazy and never worked. I’ve always worked.

But I have a history of abuse and substance abuse going back to my early teens, I was homeless and pregnant by 21. I have bipolar which has led to periods of unemployment and job losses.

I hate posts like this because they assume everyone has the same chance to go to university and into a career.

I’m in my 40s now and have a high earning husband. I work 48-60 hours a week in hospitality management but I don’t earn much over minimum wage for that (£24k with no paid overtime). I am doing an apprenticeship which will eventually give me a degree level qualification but I’ll be 45 by then.

We live in the SE so if DH buggered off I’d be fucked, half the equity in the house wouldn’t get me a studio flat and my DC are adults so no top up benefits.

It’s not for want of hard work or aspiration, I’ve never been out of work while I’ve been stable/well.

It’s very unfeminist and tone deaf of you to assume that low earning women are happy to live off a man.

Dontknowowt · 11/05/2021 07:10

@MrsTroutfireVII Why the heck not?!! Smile

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LemonRoses · 11/05/2021 07:07

@ChakaDakotaRegina

I think as many men would be equally happy to marry rich and not work! The problem is there are vastly more rich men than rich women (more rich mediocre men than rich women). Until we can fix the systems and biases that lead to this, I think it’s inevitable that young women look for a (seemingly) easy option - it’s swimming with the tide instead of against it.
I think this is probably part of the problem. You call it ‘not working’. That not my experience or belief at all. I certainly worked harder as the primary care provider to little ones than I do now in a relatively well paid full time job.
LemonRoses · 11/05/2021 07:03

[quote Dontknowowt]@LemonRoses So following that logic, men make better fathers?

I can tell you where the legal system sits with this. I have shared 50/50 care of my two children since they were 3 and 5. I was still bf'ing my toddler btw. Their view is both parents are equal when it comes to raising children.[/quote]
Yes indeed I believe men make better father’s! I’d absolutely concur that both parents are equal. That is surely what feminism means - a strong belief that men and women are equal? My personal perspective is, like most things, equal does not mean the same.

I love my children the same, but differently. My husband and I are equal parents, but different; we have different roles, different strengths, different weaknesses.

MrsTroutfireVII · 11/05/2021 05:09

@LibertyMole

Whether or not you have got a job has nothing to do with being a feminist.

Feminists are people who campaign for women’s rights.

It has nothing to do with everyone doing exactly the same thing.

I agree with this.

I'd consider a housewife who volunteers for a DV charity more of a feminist than an arse kicking businesswoman who seemingly has no interest in helping other women (met a fair few of these in the legal sector who seemed to think female trainees had to make the same sacrifices as they did and choose between job and family).

LibertyMole · 11/05/2021 05:03

Whether or not you have got a job has nothing to do with being a feminist.

Feminists are people who campaign for women’s rights.

It has nothing to do with everyone doing exactly the same thing.

MrsTroutfireVII · 11/05/2021 04:48

'Same age' not 'same sure'.

MrsTroutfireVII · 11/05/2021 04:48

@ChakaDakotaRegina

I think as many men would be equally happy to marry rich and not work! The problem is there are vastly more rich men than rich women (more rich mediocre men than rich women). Until we can fix the systems and biases that lead to this, I think it’s inevitable that young women look for a (seemingly) easy option - it’s swimming with the tide instead of against it.
I also wonder whether another factor is the fact that the man is often five years older than the woman, which is enough time to make a significant difference in salary when relatively young.

I don't know the answer but I recently saw a chart from a study which showed that couples of the same sure were much more likely to stay together.

MrsTroutfireVII · 11/05/2021 04:43

But the father in the OP would've likely had no choice as men generally can't marry a rich partner like women can.

MrsTroutfireVII · 11/05/2021 04:42

I am always deeply struck by stories from hospice workers who almost universally relay that at the very end people do not care to remember their accolades or successes in their work, but the special and meaningful people (especially family) in their lives.

I read an article ages ago where they asked people (may have been terminally ill, can't reminder) their biggest regret, and the most common one was spending too much of their life at work.

LadyFuHao · 11/05/2021 03:49

I sometimes wonder whether we have all been tricked into overvaluing being wage slaves. I'm not sure that buying into status or self-worth derived from patriarchal standards of 'working outside the home = worthy and working inside it = not' is all that healthy or even feminist.

I am always deeply struck by stories from hospice workers who almost universally relay that at the very end people do not care to remember their accolades or successes in their work, but the special and meaningful people (especially family) in their lives.

Ollinisca · 11/05/2021 02:28

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ChakaDakotaRegina · 11/05/2021 02:06

I think as many men would be equally happy to marry rich and not work! The problem is there are vastly more rich men than rich women (more rich mediocre men than rich women). Until we can fix the systems and biases that lead to this, I think it’s inevitable that young women look for a (seemingly) easy option - it’s swimming with the tide instead of against it.

Resilience · 11/05/2021 01:56

Interesting question. My DC are now mid teens. I've been a single parent sine they were babies (twins). Met now DH when they were 6. Moved in together when they were 9. Dated no one else in that time. I was primary carer and full time employee. At one point, after paying child care and mortgage, I had less money than if I'd been on benefits. I didn't stop working though because I consider state support to be only marginally more reliable than relying on a partner.
Yes, I DO think relying on a partner is a very vulnerable position to put yourself in because it ISN'T valued by society. However, do I think it's unfeminist? No. I think society has the perspective problem, not the individual woman who's made that choice.
Children are labour intensive. Especially in their early years. SOMEBODY has to look after them. Who would be a more natural choice than the parent who gestated and brought them into the world? How have we reached a point where a role as essential to the continuation of society as growing crops for food is so undervalued? It's because capitalism and patriarchy combine to devalue it. If child care was considered in GDP and separated NRPs had to pay half of any professional child care costs incurred by the RP I think we'd see it valued very differently.
So you could argue that women who marry to give up work and have children are actually just valuing themselves as they should! That's surely quite a feminist stance! It's a precarious one though precisely because in general society doesn't agree.
Giving up work without children in the mix though? Less so. I think that's potentially foolish and possibly quite selfish although there will always be individual couples where it's a mutual decision that is in both parties best interests.

GoingThruTheMotions · 11/05/2021 00:35

I'm not sure about separations, don't some father's kind of wash their hands as it were? DH certainly has friends who consider raising the child mum's job whilst they get to be fun Sunday dad's. DH not like that at all, but he's a very rare breed.

Ideally I would like all jobs to allow much more time at home and for family whether they have kids or not.
I'm pretty sure most jobs could be condensed into a productive 3-4 day week, but things seem to just go the other way sadly.

Dontknowowt · 11/05/2021 00:28

@GoingThruTheMotions I dont think fathering is either tbf. Hence maybe why in separations it is still often the case that mum has most custody. I don't think that should always automatically be the case?

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GoingThruTheMotions · 11/05/2021 00:24

I also echo what others have said that mothering isn't valued enough.

Dontknowowt · 10/05/2021 23:56

I can't help but think some women want equality but only when it suits them? Just my feeling of course.

@GoingThruTheMotions Of course, I totally get that. I agree with you that the system needs changing.

I guess our set-up is slightly unusual in that I'm the higher earner (I'm qualified to post-grad level, OH didn't go to uni).

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GoingThruTheMotions · 10/05/2021 23:48

I can only speak for our situation. DH like the other men on our course, got snapped up early and climbed the ladder. Myself and my female peers landed jobs slowly after that, so I am a good 2 years behind to begin with.
Both myself and my husband then moved abroad to work. My husband got his old job back when he moved back. Part of that is he's wonderful at his job, but I think being a male in a very female field where males are prized helps.
By the time we moved back I was 5+ years behind him in progression, which has further widened by promotion etc. We've accepted I'll never be the breadwinner, but his job always felt more 'secure' anyway. It's hard to separate what's sex, personality and talent in regard to that, as we both have good points and bad like all professionals.
I don't consider myself less a feminist because he earns more than me. We both understand the system needs changing but there's not much we can do about it as individuals.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 10/05/2021 23:47

What's a true feminist OP?

Dontknowowt · 10/05/2021 23:43

@LemonRoses So following that logic, men make better fathers?

I can tell you where the legal system sits with this. I have shared 50/50 care of my two children since they were 3 and 5. I was still bf'ing my toddler btw. Their view is both parents are equal when it comes to raising children.

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LemonRoses · 10/05/2021 23:40

Night

LemonRoses · 10/05/2021 23:40

[quote Dontknowowt]@LemonRoses I disagree that women make better parents than men just because they are women. Surely that's sexist?![/quote]
Did I say women make better parents? No, I said women make better mothers !

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