Can you be a true feminist if you...?

Just for the flip opinion my husband' loved' out baby first. It wasn't instantaneous for either of us and I think the myth of instant overwhelmingly love did contribute to my post natal depression.

Then again I had a heavily drugged induction so we don't know how the blocking of my own oxytocin contributed to that either.

It's definitely a different love for both of us, but that could easily be put down to other factors like personality, my PTSD about the birth.

It's up to the posters claiming there is a difference to say what it is.

What's "mothering" ? I don't know and I'm a mother. It's all a bit "feels like a woman"

Often within just hours of birth, mothers report feelings of overwhelming love and attachment for their new baby. Fathers can learn this but it isn't instinctive

It's not instinctive for fathers to love their babies?

If you want a starter for ten - look at the short and long term physical and psychological advantaged breast feeding confers.

Then the undoubted advantages of early bonding: Bonding with a new baby is natural for most mothers. Left alone, new mothers will hold their baby next to their bodies, rock them gently, strive for eye contact, sing or talk to the baby and begin to nurse. Often within just hours of birth, mothers report feelings of overwhelming love and attachment for their new baby. Fathers can learn this but it isn't instinctive - which is unsurprising given the different hormonal influences on each sex. That early attachment is vital to healthy development and poor attachment to parents is linked to delinquency in boys and girls. Stronger effect sizes were found for attachment to mothers than attachment to fathers.

The mother's educational attainment has a very significant impact on the health and achievement of their children - in a way that the father's doesn't.

Maternal (not paternal) negative attitude towards an infant at 6 months is an independent predictor of child behaviour problems at 5 years (for both daughters and sons).

So yes, mothering is very important for the healthy development of the next generation and no, it can't be fully replicated by fathers.

I can't help but think some women want equality but only when it suits them?

People (quite rightly) want equality of opportunity. Equality doesn't tell you what to do, it allows you to make choices. Otherwise it becomes just another box to put you in or another stick to beat you with.

I’m still waiting for an explanation of why people don’t think a fathers role is different to a mother’s

I can't help but think some women want equality but only when it suits them?

Everyone wants women to have equality when it suits them. Men and women.

I'm still waiting for an explanation of what these unique "mothering" qualities are which are so different from "fathering" qualities or "parenting" qualities.

But I suppose as I'm "hard of thinking" (as opposed to your unclear and ambiguous posting) these unique mothering qualities passed me by too.

Personally it all sounds as "woo" as anything trans activists come up. I certainly don't want to be set up on some sort of motherhood pedestal.

Pedantic or consciously finding interpretations that are misleading?

• It makes you a mother and definitely a better mother. Mothering is a very important role for society and for women Good mothering has a huge impact on the next generation

Your interpretation is not what she said.

What is a "better mother"? The reference to a "better mother than a man" is nonsensical. A man is not a mother.*

Better mother means a mother that is better than a man can be - and, except for the hard of thinking, that is indeed very obvious, but quite important, no? Mothering as the ultimate feminine role cannot be taken over by men; It is unique to women, but is often devalued. Unless mothering is seen as being of similar importance to drawing a high salary, then women are unlikely to ever have equality. All the while some women spout that 'living of a man' is not a valid option for women who support equality, then mothering and therefore womanhood are being undermined by other women.

And yes, there are definitely better mothers and less good mothers but that is not the point being discussed.

I wouldn’t say I was a feminist but here’s our situation and I suppose you can judge it from there

I used to be the main earner in our marriage by quite a considerable amount, I got made redundant during the recession in 2008 and took a lower paid job so my husband and I the were near enough on identical salaries.

Fast forward a few years my husband set up a limited company doing his chosen career path and now earns an incredible amount of money, it worked out more tax efficient for me to give up my full time job and become an employee through our own business, I now earn more than my last job but only work a few hours a month, this really was a decision based on tax rather than being a stay at home woman! We don’t have children but this arrangement works for us, definitely our business and now my parents are aging and need more assistance it’s helping with the family aspect too

[quote Dontknowowt]@HecatesCatsInFancyHats For me it's not using "feminism" just because it may suit me better to do so. And it's treating everyone - regardless of gender - with the same respect.[/quote]
Feminism is treating everyone exactly the same? Would you say you're a liberal/intersectional feminist, a gender critical feminist, a radical feminist? How do you think of yourself and what ends would you like to achieve?

07:06LemonRoses

Dontknowowt

*@Checkingout811It doesn't make me a better/more important parent than my child's father simply because I gave birth to her!

It doesn’t make you a better parent. It makes you a mother and definitely a better mother. Mothering is a very important role for society and for women
Good mothering has a huge impact on the next generation

Your interpretation is not what she said.

What is a "better mother"? The reference to a "better mother than a man" is nonsensical. A man is not a mother.

The home economy should be valued alongside the paid economy. Some families chose for one parent to stay home, some chose to outsource some of the home economy tasks and split the remainder around work. Both totally valid life choices.
I don't think it's feminist to target marrying a rich man. But I don't know anyone who did that tbh. I have friends who happened to fall in love with rich men, some gave up work to look after children, some didn't. They are respected by their spouses either way. I don't think a feminist should have a view on either life choice as more valid.

Lemon was responding (quoted in fact) to a point someone made re their male partner. And meant a better mother than any man, unless I'm very much mistaken.

Feminist utopia = no need for protection from male violence. But we still have the fear and want of protection and a provider.

Same as my kids being scared to sleep alone. We’ve evolved to build safe houses and emigrated to places without lions etc. But my kids are still scared no matter what the logic demonstrates.

Needed. Otherwise you’d be eaten by a lion or raped by another man. Bonobos are pretty cool but sadly we didn’t evolve that way, but not quite as bad as the chimps. Unless you’d don’t believe in evolution...

Now we are protected by the law and civilisation. Both created by men. But ultimately enforced by the big strong men or the big weapons they wield.

Denying evolution, reproductive roles and biology is not going to help anyone.

There’s never going to be total flat out equality, it’s more about fairness. We should celebrate differences instead of denying them. Women are being told we are the same as men, but isn’t true.

Doesn’t^

You having had that experience in your life doesn’t mean other women will too or there is something wrong with women/feminists who don’t follow your example.

Feminism isn’t about flat out equality. Men and women are different, not just societally or economically. Women are evolutionarily programmed to seek men who can provide and protect - not just wealth but strength and kindness. Testosterone makes men bigger, more aggressive and more likely to take risks, the latter equals rewards. Women are smaller and weaker so needed protection. Just the same as men are more visually driven when seeking a “mate”, signs of youth and good health. Humans are more complex and can undo some of this instinct thankfully. Male and female brains aren’t that different aside from hormones so intellectual pursuits, such as modern careers, don’t need to be sex specific.

Hating on women for wanting to marry a man who can provide well and her wanting to stay home with kids is misogyny.

Putting others down to make yourself feel better is not the route to happiness.

[quote Dontknowowt]@HecatesCatsInFancyHats For me it's not using "feminism" just because it may suit me better to do so. And it's treating everyone - regardless of gender - with the same respect.[/quote]
Except you’ve judged women with wealthy partners.... so that just add up.

For me it's not using "feminism" just because it may suit me better to do so

Sorry I don’t understand this bit, could you explain please

You ain’t no feminist, bruv.