Wipeout for Labour in Hartlepool

[quote PronounssheRa]Labour's deputy Angela Rayner has been sacked from her roles as party chair and campaign coordinator following poor results in the English local elections.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57037839[/quote]
Well, it's a start.

Labour's deputy Angela Rayner has been sacked from her roles as party chair and campaign coordinator following poor results in the English local elections.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57037839

And on the other side, Sajid Javid has a Muslim heritage. And is a Conservative MP.

Labour really needs to lose the obsession with divisive identity politics. It's a big part of the problem. People don't want it. They want positive constructive policies instead.

more Jewish people vote Tory
They do now. Corbyn made sure of that. Previously, loads of them leaned to the left.

I think the anti-semitism is explainable by one simple fact: more Jewish people vote Tory and more Muslims vote Labour. Therefore when it comes to approaching the Israel/Palestine question it’s all a matter of appealing to a voting base.

I don’t for a second truly believe the Labour Party are endemically more anti-Semitic than the Conservative party, but like with a lot of things they find themselves over a barrel ideologically.

I recall when Corbyn failed to formalise the definition of what constitutes anti-semitism over the clause you have to agree with Israel or you are guilty. It would be a little bit like someone of accusing me of racism against the Chinese for believing they should get out of Tibet.

That's why I'm interested in what "identity politics" actually means, practically speaking. I get, and share, the aversion to TWAW and lack of protection for women's sex-based rights, but (a) this a relatively recent thing and (b) it's not all that clear that the Tories or anyone else are much better. In terms of Labour's historic support for other aspects of identity politics - the things dating from the 80s that the Mail and Sun take the piss out of it for - what about it is actually so harmful to working class people? Where did the working class get the idea that you can't work towards greater structural economic equality AND socio-cultural equality at the same time? Or that trying to do so is SOOO offensive that it's WORSE than a party that openly opposes any kind of equality and just shits on them without shame?

Identity politics is about dividing up society in terms of different self-identified groups, most often based on categories that are highly socially constructed, somehow rating them hierarchically and seeing the job of politics as being oriented towards serving justice to these kinds of groups. Socially constructed groups means it tends to favour groups based on things like race, gender, and (ever increasing) sexuality categories.

That's not at all of course to say that we don't have things like discrimination based on race. But an interesting change in emphasis can be seen over the years as identity politics approaches have come to dominate - instead of saying, we need a world where being of African or Polish descent is seen as being immaterial other than as an interesting fact about your family, or where your sexual orientation is not worthy of comment and gay people are seen as being just like everyone else, to an approach that almost seems at time to be the opposite of that, reinforcing the distinction of the categories in a way that is almost essentialist.

It's not so much about the exploding of the hierarchy, but the-reordering of it. Except with sex - we have to disappear that because it's not something re-orderable.

As far as whether it is possible to do this "as well as", no, it isn't. For a lot of regular people this is not an ideological statement, it's just what they've observed. Their basic position is stagnant or getting worse while their political representatives seem to spend a lot of time talking about rainbow lanyards and taking down statues. Maybe they would believe they could do both if they saw both happening.

But the identity hierarchy is not really compatible with class based justice or universalist principles. A lot of this came out on the thread about intersectionalism - a hierarchy based on essentialism around race and gender can never really deal with class which will in many cases contradict the supposed hierarchy.

This is why globalists and corporations love identity politics. Adolph Reed once alluded to it as the lapdog of neoliberalism - it allows them to work for "social justice" but protects an economic arrangement that is systematically advantageous for those at the top, of wherever identity group.

On the other hand, they benefit more from seeing sex as an identity, that is, as a gender.

it's been pointed out but sometimes it's not emphasised, that maybe one of the reasons that gay rights became so emphasised by corporate and political entities was because it looks progressive, but really isn't difficult for them. There are no real special accommodations for special physical needs, and demographically it skews university educated, no kids, above average incomes.

Women are a problem to accommodate but it's better for capital for them to e in paid employment.

I am not sure about anti-Semitism, but I'm not convinced it's part of the same problem. Or it may be partly, but I also think a lot of traditional leftists have ideological problems with Zionism and other similar political ideas, and that tends to be seen now as inherently anti-Semitic.

That's disappointing but he's still bucked the general voting trend against Labour.

In Manchester (and Liverpool) you could put a red rosette on a donkey and it would get elected. It doesn't tell us anything about appeal to the rest of the country.

Thanks for the link to the Janice Turner article. It read well.

Burnham is TWAW, supports GRA reform and apologised for having a meeting with LGB alliance

That's disappointing but he's still bucked the general voting trend against Labour.

If you don't respect my sex, don't expect my X.
Women are leaving labour because labour left women.

mobile.twitter.com/MayorofGM/status/1227637382083698689

Burnham is TWAW, supports GRA reform and apologised for having a meeting with LGB alliance

Yet Andy Burnham won with what the BBC called a "landslide victory" www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-57037359

I don't know whether he's ever said anything about sex and gender, but he certainly stood up for Manchester during their tier whatever it was, and he was also great campaigning for those of us excluded from Govt support through Covid, so a Labour politician can be popular.

My fundamental problem with the Lab/Lib/Green/SNP party position on gender ideology is that it's a huge and egregious lie about one of the very basic tenets of human understanding. A mainstream party taking the position that biology isn't real/a woman is not an adult human female/people can change sex is at the level of them standing on a platform that gravity doesn't exist or the earth is flat.
I agree, and this is not just the position of 'rabid Momentum types' but one openly supported by party leader candidates.

That's why I'm interested in what "identity politics" actually means, practically speaking. I get, and share, the aversion to TWAW and lack of protection for women's sex-based rights, but (a) this a relatively recent thing and (b) it's not all that clear that the Tories or anyone else are much better. In terms of Labour's historic support for other aspects of identity politics - the things dating from the 80s that the Mail and Sun take the piss out of it for - what about it is actually so harmful to working class people? Where did the working class get the idea that you can't work towards greater structural economic equality AND socio-cultural equality at the same time? Or that trying to do so is SOOO offensive that it's WORSE than a party that openly opposes any kind of equality and just shits on them without shame?

Personally for me the trans stuff sits apart from other issues that also get called identity politics. I can see why it gets mashed together and I can see why people object especially as the movements themselves have a tendency to conflate.

For example it appears you cannot support BLM (the org) without agreeing to trans ideology, ditto the climate change movement via Extinction Rebellion. It's an incredibly prescriptive set of ideas with the expectation you buy into wholesale or not at all. This deliberately encourages polarisation.

My fundamental problem with the Lab/Lib/Green/SNP party position on gender ideology is that it's a huge and egregious lie about one of the very basic tenets of human understanding. A mainstream party taking the position that biology isn't real/a woman is not an adult human female/people can change sex is at the level of them standing on a platform that gravity doesn't exist or the earth is flat.

We all know that the Tories lie and they aren't blameless in the gender fiasco but they haven't embraced the outright absurdity as a party political stance and then threatened/expelled heretics and non believers.

Johnson is a master of fibs and outright lies if he thinks he can slither out of a tight spot or it benefits him in some way, that isn't in in dispute. But to have actual politicians who are willing to state things on record like 'babies have no sex' makes the NHS Brexit bus lie look like small fry.

It's hard to put into words how proudly disturbing the denial of reality from the aforementioned parties is because if they are prepared to do something so Orwellian on this matter then what else would they be prepared to do or support? A lie on this level feels different to the sleazy lies one expects from career politicians.

This is why I supported the Labour Party for years right up until 2019 when I couldn't do it anymore.

@MaMaLa321

FWIW I believe the problem is that everyone can see what some of the Opposition think of them, and it's a pretty disgusting sight. But most people who work at local level in politics are decent people.

My DH and many of his friends, actively support Labour. They just feel saddened at what has happened. And powerless. They're not interested in Identity Politics, or name calling, they just want to see a better world. I admire what they do, even if I can't support them.

Aye, that's my experience too. I'm curious about this image I keep reading of woke-rabid Momentum extremists rampaging all over the country trying to force everybody to state their pronouns, as most of the people I see in the left of Labour are just reasonable people perfectly capable of discussing issues open-mindedly and willing to give up some of their free time to create a more decent society.

[quote PermanentTemporary]@FifteenToes agree with you. The difficulty is that the political landscape appears to be morphing. Who is working class now? Who thinks of themselves as wc, and why - is it economic, political or cultural? Do other people agree? Do they need a political party for that part of themselves? What do they need or want politically? How many of them are there?

There's certainly a big youth vote who are as a class economically insecure and socially highly progressive. Theres nothing wrong with Labour serving that group. But there's nothing obvious about a coalition with different classes there. And even in that group there will be splits eg about internationalism/globalism.[/quote]
The problem with this is that politics is a zero sum game. So when people vote Tory (or just don't vote, letting a Tory in) because they hate Labour so much, they're not just saying that Labour's youth/socially progressive/middle class image is a problem for them. They're saying that it's MORE of a problem than the Tories' erosion of workers' rights and penchant for a zero hours gig economy, chronic underfunding of social care and public services, gradual undermining of democracy and, more recently, responsibility for one of the world's very worst responses to the Covid epidemic.

That's why I'm interested in what "identity politics" actually means, practically speaking. I get, and share, the aversion to TWAW and lack of protection for women's sex-based rights, but (a) this a relatively recent thing and (b) it's not all that clear that the Tories or anyone else are much better. In terms of Labour's historic support for other aspects of identity politics - the things dating from the 80s that the Mail and Sun take the piss out of it for - what about it is actually so harmful to working class people? Where did the working class get the idea that you can't work towards greater structural economic equality AND socio-cultural equality at the same time? Or that trying to do so is SOOO offensive that it's WORSE than a party that openly opposes any kind of equality and just shits on them without shame?

Isn't this just about class-based and cultural prejudice? The same thing (in reverse) that people are complaining about in middle class Labour?

It's worth remembering that the Internet exaggerates and encourages conflict.

This is the best thing I've read on the Internet today. Something always worth having in mind.

It's worth remembering that the Internet exaggerates and encourages conflict.
Good post, you're right.

FWIW I believe the problem is that everyone can see what some of the Opposition think of them, and it's a pretty disgusting sight. But most people who work at local level in politics are decent people.

My DH and many of his friends, actively support Labour. They just feel saddened at what has happened. And powerless. They're not interested in Identity Politics, or name calling, they just want to see a better world. I admire what they do, even if I can't support them.

Unfortunately the Internet allows us a window into the minds of the minority.

Peace everyone.

I don't think this is as simple as stupid poor people being to blame, PC obsessed middle classes being to blame, corbyn or starmer being to blame.

There's tonnes of finger pointing and flaws and oversights on every side and to some extent we all have blinkers on. We're living in very convoluted and peculiar times which although may not be ideal, uncomfortable and confusing can be a real opportunity for thinking, listening and self reflection.

No class, race or gender is a monolith and there's never been a time that reflects that more than now. We have to meet each other in the middle and let go of this urge to be in the right.

Practising compassion and loving kindness for one another including and especially the other and seeking to understand various perspectives has helped me calm my sense of anxiety at humanity.

It's worth remembering that the Internet exaggerates and encourages conflict.

@FifteenToes agree with you. The difficulty is that the political landscape appears to be morphing. Who is working class now? Who thinks of themselves as wc, and why - is it economic, political or cultural? Do other people agree? Do they need a political party for that part of themselves? What do they need or want politically? How many of them are there?

There's certainly a big youth vote who are as a class economically insecure and socially highly progressive. Theres nothing wrong with Labour serving that group. But there's nothing obvious about a coalition with different classes there. And even in that group there will be splits eg about internationalism/globalism.

Brilliant article by Janice Turner. Thanks for sharing @Mollyollydolly

What exactly do you want these middle class people to DO, once they "wake up"? Being too "obsessed" with gay rights and anti-islamophobia seems like a flimsy reason to prefer an apocolyptic vision of total societal meltdown over simply getting over your class hangups and learning to cooperate with people from a different background.

Middle class labour has become obsessed with identity politics and isolated so many. Voter apathy with working and lower classes needs to be treated at the root and starmer and corbyn aren't all to blame here. I had to force myself to vote for Labour this time even though i know they think the majority of commoners are thickos who don't know what's good for us, even though we're all branded racists and morons. Its exhausting. I'm starting to not give a crap tbh.

My greatest fantasy is that the middle class get dragged down here with us. Poor British people of all races, abilities and genders are exhausted of being blamed, exhausted of being called stupid, exhausted of being pawns, exhausted of being pandered to. Come suffer with us. Let us strip your children of their educations, job opportunities, homes, stability and futures, may your children join us to whither in this indignity and exhaustion until you finally wake up. I honestly hope it happens. I want to see you all in a state of economic anxiety. I want to see your lives grow rough and hopeless. Then maybe something will give

Something to do with socially conservative values and "anti-wokism" seems to have something to do with it, but even there it's very difficult because just as there are millions of older ex-Labour voters saying that, there were millions of largely younger ex-non-voters energised by Corbyn with precisely the opposite social values, who nearly turned the tide in 2017 but are now leaving the party in droves, depriving it of funding, boots on the ground and votes.

I suspect it's an impossible task, holding all this together (particularly with a Tory-owned media to talk up every sign of a crack). Labour in the 40s and 60s spoke to a much larger, more culturally coherent working class who were much poorer so had more to lose from the Tories. That electorate is not going to reappear any time soon, and what is left of it seems to have a visceral hatred for the socialist urban middle class that have been drafted into Labour to boost its flagging numbers. (Say what you want about middle class woke Labour despising the working class, but the feeling appears to be entirely mutual - so which came first, the chicken or the egg?)

The UK will be Tory for as long as the UK continues to exist, which unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective) might not be very much longer. Most people seem OK with that, I suppose the Tories at least are the devil you know.