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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Laurel Hubbard to go to Tokyo

513 replies

Biscuitsanddoombar · 05/05/2021 20:59

Not a surprise and hopefully it’ll open some eyes about the utter ridiculousness of allowing someone who is male to compete against women in weightlifting

www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/may/05/trans-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-set-to-make-history-at-tokyo-olympics

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Ekofisk · 23/06/2021 13:01

Possibly, Harper was busy shooting themselves in the foot every step of the way. But would have been good for WH to bring Hilton into the debate.

Helleofabore · 23/06/2021 12:58

Ekofisk

Maybe Emma Barrett talked to Harper longer than expected. Harper clearly struggled to answer towards the end. The complete bonkersness of even Harper having significant doubts about the fairness of Hubbards inclusion was very obvious.

A shame, Dr Hilton would have been awesome as usual.

Ekofisk · 23/06/2021 12:52

So Women’s Hour invited Emma Hilton to take part and then didn’t call her, despite her being sat by the phone waiting to be interviewed?

Laurel Hubbard to go to Tokyo
EsmaCannonball · 23/06/2021 11:58

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

I think the next webinar Baroness Nicholson is holding is on sports. I assume Tanni Grey Thompson will be speaking, which will be worth listening to.

Baroness Grey Thompson was born with a disability. I would be interested to hear what she thinks about the concept of being "born in the wrong body" and as a paralympian I expect she also has some worthwhile insights into fairness in sport.

Tanni Grey-Thompson spoke out on the need for women-only toilets. She told of the extra difficulty disabled women have using these facilities (cubicles not having enough space for wheelchairs, for example, and therefore having to leave the door open) and how much more vulnerable that makes them. If she disagrees with this, she won't be stopped from speaking her mind.
Ekofisk · 23/06/2021 10:27

@SoapboxFox

A transwoman athlete is talking to Emma Barnett. The athlete is not answering any of Emma's questions, just blustering and ignoring science. Emma is being a very incisive interviewer today.
That interviewee was Joanna Harper!

Emma Barnett was great at pointing out that the Emperor has no clothes.

TheSockMonster · 23/06/2021 10:23

I don’t think this will have a good outcome for Hubbard or the many, many trans people out there just trying to get on and live their lives.

Had there been opportunities for calm, respectful discussions on gender and trans issues instead of #nodebate the outcome could have been better for everyone.

I also agree with those who’ve said it wouldn’t have gone this far if it was impacting the serious business of male sport. Can you imagine the uproar if, instead of competing on the women’s teams, Hubbard was competing on the male team with a male/female points adjustment to reflect her new female identity. Let’s say the difference between the male record and female record added on to her scores for each event. After all, she has identical potential to a biological female now, so it would be perfectly fair.

SoapboxFox · 23/06/2021 10:22

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007qlvb/episodes/guide

SoapboxFox · 23/06/2021 10:21

A transwoman athlete is talking to Emma Barnett. The athlete is not answering any of Emma's questions, just blustering and ignoring science. Emma is being a very incisive interviewer today.

NecessaryScene · 23/06/2021 10:12

So I guess that's the witnesses? There are 2 women on the panel according to this thread - Melanie Philips and Ash Sarkar.

I'm not convinced you're getting the best female representation here...

Ekofisk · 23/06/2021 10:07

So, tonight’s BBC R4 Moral Maze Moral discussing trans inclusion in sport with Dafydd Mills Daniel, Joanna Harper, Debbie Hayton and Adam Wagner. That's 4 people born male; 2 transwomen and 2 men.

I’m sure the Scottish Government would see this as a “gender balanced panel”, but FGS where are the women?

SoapboxFox · 23/06/2021 10:07

Woman's Hour are discussing this now...

Clymene · 23/06/2021 09:33

I don't know any serious sports people (I mean people who compete at a national/international level who think this is right or fair).

The fact that Hubbard is old, rich and white while the woman he's taken the place from is young, not rich and indigenous is shining a very bright light on the hypocrisy of the likes of idiots like Ash Sarker too.

Sophoclesthefox · 23/06/2021 09:28

I’m very much in favour of a lot of media exposure for Hubbard.

I think a picture says a lot.

Laurel Hubbard to go to Tokyo
Tesla73 · 23/06/2021 09:18

very good article here from Debbie Hayton

thecritic.co.uk/a-gendered-soul/

Helleofabore · 23/06/2021 08:50

If records get set that women are unable to match, women are likely to get hurt trying to beat it and put under pressure to dope in order to remain competitive. Look at Elena Muchina - a world class Olympic gymnast who was pressured by her coach to perform a Salto tumble from men's gymnastics and ended up a quadriplegic.

I always come back to this video. It is really clear that males simply have advantages in gymnastics that are undeniable and come from skeleton and muscle development (those things untouched by reduction of 't' it seems).

Helleofabore · 23/06/2021 08:44

It has been suggested aspoonfulofdust by quite a number of industry professionals.

It would seem the way forward in many sports that are non-contact sports. Some already are of course.

ASpoonfulofDust · 23/06/2021 08:39

So why not rename all men's categories 'open' and let everyone who isn't a born-and-still-identifying-as-woman battle it out over there?

Let them figure out testosterone levels and fairness. Not our circus.

bellinisurge · 23/06/2021 08:18

Thanks, Betty. I'll listen on catch up

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 23/06/2021 08:15

A woman who took any testosterone supplement, even if it didn't actually raise her levels, would be banned for cheating if caught.

Also, her body hasn’t got the advantages of having developed through male puberty.

If records get set that women are unable to match, women are likely to get hurt trying to beat it and put under pressure to dope in order to remain competitive. Look at Elena Muchina - a world class Olympic gymnast who was pressured by her coach to perform a Salto tumble from men's gymnastics and ended up a quadriplegic.

So many tragedies waiting to happen to women.

ThirdThoughts · 23/06/2021 08:01

There was an interesting documentary I caught on the BBC recently about Paralympic sport and problems with the classification system that separates disabled athletes by conditions/equivalent ability and how hard it is to keep it fair. "The Unfair Games"

At first I had an exposé saying that one type of decision was wrong but it would then talk to the supposed beneficiaries of that decision and you'd see it had wrecked their sporting careers too.

Seeing how even small changes to a category or to an individual's classification could deeply affect the fairness of a race and the knock on effect to people's careers, funding etc.

It's not about trans sport, but it does raise similar issues about level playing fields and how changes like this are exploitable and the pressures and prestige around countries trying to get more medals. And how if a classification is widened to allow more able people into it then it quickly disadvantages the people the classification was originally for.

I think if you have enough trans people interested in elite level sport you could try and create a classification system to allow inclusion and fair competition, but it would have to account for biology and wouldn't be males competing against females.

BettyFilous · 23/06/2021 07:53

The Laurel Hubbard case was mentioned in a trail for tonight’s Moral Maze on R4 at 8pm, which is going to be discussing transwomen in women’s sport.

bellinisurge · 23/06/2021 07:36

If you are on Twitter compare and contrast the responses that Tessa Sanderson CBE is getting twitter.com/tessasanderson/status/1407407687306985473?s=21

to the responses Andy Turner is getting

twitter.com/andyturner110h/status/1407072204764897281?s=21

Helleofabore · 23/06/2021 07:22

@OwningAllMyMistakes

Well clearly that countries Olympic selection committee chose Laurel for that position on the team & if LH hadn’t been selected do you think she would be bleating constantly about it? Let’s just see what happens without being vicious.
No thanks. Waiting to see what happens will hardly put things right for Nini in Tonga. And waiting to see what happens will not stop the harm being done already to women and girls and their sports.

What do you honestly think ‘wait and see’ will do? We already know that a 43 year old, late transitioned male with a huge body advantage has taken the place of a 21 year old woman. Her chance of sponsorship is now significantly diminished.

As a male weighlifter of that age, it is not only those physical benefits, but they have had the benefit of coaching and competitive experience as a male (for much longer than most of the female competitors). And never any menstrual cycle issues to deal with. Never any pregnancy issues.

So what are we waiting for exactly?

Helleofabore · 23/06/2021 07:12

That NB policy for Ringette, Canada is alarming in the direction it is taking.

It is so good to see some Olympians speaking up now. And even better that they state why they were silent previously - fear. Until people realise the immense cost that so many brave people have paid by speaking up to get us this far, I think people will still be wondering why it has just blown up now.

Like the ignoramuses who look around and ask snidely ‘where are all the ‘feminists’ talking about the conflicts’ that you occasionally see on twitter.

Sophoclesthefox · 23/06/2021 06:43

@littlbrowndog

And here’s Canada the brave
I’m completely unsurprised to see this ludicrous non binary policy. It’s been obvious that the move has been in that direction. I said a couple of years ago that this would be the next “frontier for trans rights in sport”, and was told I was a conspiracy theorist.

Ha.

So, yep, the door is pretty much open for any male who fancies to stroll in to women’s sport. Thanks a bunch, IOC.

Signed the petition, thanks for sharing.

It’s fantastic to see some sporting greats speaking out, I hope that the more it happens, the more people feel empowered to do the same