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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Britain's youngest trans child

513 replies

poshme · 05/05/2021 11:36

Article in daily fail (sorry)

4 year old female twin says she is a boy (like her twin brother) and expresses interest in firefighters & police officers & doesn't like pigtails.

So the parents are transitioning their 4 year old and saying they have grown up conversations about gender with them.

Sigh.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
megletthesecond · 08/05/2021 11:46

The only people sitting in judgement of this child are the parents.

Honestly, it's bloody painful explaining this.

AssassinatedBeauty · 08/05/2021 11:45

I would really be interested if @MishyJDI was able to come back and respond to the posts directed to her.

Justhadathought · 08/05/2021 11:43

I do love gender diverse people - it is awesome as it messes around with the patriarchy and society structures which are just constructions

Gender is the socially constructed bit. Sex is a material reality; a reality which need not define your expression or interests in life.

Irony Literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character's words or actions is clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character.

What you are prescribing is that people must conform to certain gendered expressions or 'preferences' otherwise they must be the opposite sex.

Sex and gender are not synonymous except in the minds of trans allies and activists

LostToucan · 08/05/2021 11:38

“Non-binary football team”.

So it’s just mixed sex then?

H2OConnoisseur · 08/05/2021 11:22

Sadly gender stereotypes seem to have become more important than ever, especially amongst teens. I saw a post on Twitter the other day from a pretty popular 'activist' about how they dislike dresses, gossip, and 'caring' roles. Apparently that makes them non-binary. I've also seen posts applauding the first fully non-binary football team at their school. Gone are the days where you can do anything and still be female/male.

jellyfrizz · 08/05/2021 11:21

@DickKerrLadies

I feel embarrassed for people who turn up to criticise what they believe are GC views whilst proving they don't understand what those views are.
It’s very common on Twitter too.
LaBellina · 08/05/2021 11:20

She is 4. She has all the time in the world to transition if that is what she EVENTUALLY really wants. Very probably this is just a phase. I also didn’t like dresses or cute girly stuff when I was a young child. Still I’m very happy to be a woman as an adult.
It’s utter madness to judge these things at such a young age.

R0wantrees · 08/05/2021 11:18

Being critical of sex based stereotypes/roles (gendered expectations) is not conservatism. Reinforcing sex based stereotypes/roles (gendered expectations is not progressive.

DickKerrLadies · 08/05/2021 11:18

I feel embarrassed for people who turn up to criticise what they believe are GC views whilst proving they don't understand what those views are.

ThomasPenman · 08/05/2021 11:10

@MishyJDI

God all of you lot sitting in judgement on these parents and the child, without knowing the situation.

How about let them be parents, and let their child have the freedom to explore. Play with toys they want, dress how they want. Or be a child without such patriarchal boundaries being enforced.

I think its lovely. Children can be children and find their own way over time.

I do love gender diverse people - it is awesome as it messes around with the patriarchy and society structures which are just constructions. That breaks down boundaries moreso than GC conservatism enforcing out dated norms using fear based rhetoric. Bravo!

This is bizarre to me. I say a child is a boy or a girl based on their anatomy, their sex. You seem to be of the opinion that being a boy or a girl is based on their interests and clothing choices? I say harmful stereotypes are assuming someone's likes and interests based on their sex. You seem to think the harmful stereotype is to assume someone's sex based on their anatomy?
toffeebutterpopcorn · 08/05/2021 11:00

My niece is a firefighter (came top of her class). Does that make her male?

TheWeeDonkey · 08/05/2021 10:54

Have you read any of the thread @MishyJDI ?

You seem to have got it all a bit arse over tit.

RebeccaOfSunnyHellFarm · 08/05/2021 10:48

Insisting that if you like cars and fire engines you must be a boy does not challenge the patriarchy. It very much enforces it.
Butterfly is a TV show. Not a parenting manuel.

AssassinatedBeauty · 08/05/2021 10:48

I mean, what the heck do you think being "gender critical" actually means??

AssassinatedBeauty · 08/05/2021 10:46

@MishyJDI

God all of you lot sitting in judgement on these parents and the child, without knowing the situation.

How about let them be parents, and let their child have the freedom to explore. Play with toys they want, dress how they want. Or be a child without such patriarchal boundaries being enforced.

I think its lovely. Children can be children and find their own way over time.

I do love gender diverse people - it is awesome as it messes around with the patriarchy and society structures which are just constructions. That breaks down boundaries moreso than GC conservatism enforcing out dated norms using fear based rhetoric. Bravo!

Firstly, these parents have chosen to publicise their decisions and their children's lives in the Daily Mail and Mail Online. They are actively seeking attention and discussion.

Secondly, what parts of people's posts here lead you to believe that gender critical feminists want to preserve and enforce stereotyped gender norms?? Or that gender critical feminists are by definition "conservative"?

The criticism being levelled at these parents is that they are enforcing rigid gender norms onto their children. They are taking completely developmentally normal behaviour and deciding that this is a sign that one of their children is actually the opposite gender to their sex. A girl doesn't want pigtails and is interested in firefighters, therefore she must really be a boy. That's enforcing stereotyped gender norms right there. Everyone posting here is saying that childhood interests and hairstyles are for everyone, not reserved for one sex or the other.

Soubriquet · 08/05/2021 10:46

@MishyJDI

God all of you lot sitting in judgement on these parents and the child, without knowing the situation.

How about let them be parents, and let their child have the freedom to explore. Play with toys they want, dress how they want. Or be a child without such patriarchal boundaries being enforced.

I think its lovely. Children can be children and find their own way over time.

I do love gender diverse people - it is awesome as it messes around with the patriarchy and society structures which are just constructions. That breaks down boundaries moreso than GC conservatism enforcing out dated norms using fear based rhetoric. Bravo!

But...that isn’t what they doing

The little girl doesn’t like dresses and pigtails, so they have said she must be a boy

Talk about gender stereotypes

Roboticcarrot · 08/05/2021 10:39

@MishyJDI

God all of you lot sitting in judgement on these parents and the child, without knowing the situation.

How about let them be parents, and let their child have the freedom to explore. Play with toys they want, dress how they want. Or be a child without such patriarchal boundaries being enforced.

I think its lovely. Children can be children and find their own way over time.

I do love gender diverse people - it is awesome as it messes around with the patriarchy and society structures which are just constructions. That breaks down boundaries moreso than GC conservatism enforcing out dated norms using fear based rhetoric. Bravo!

But that's the opposite of what the parents are doing. They are enforcing gender ideologies by accepting that as their child likes fire engines, which they see as aligning with boys interests, they are happy to push the notion that she must be a boy. Why not teach the child that girls can like what they want, they can hate dresses, like short hair and dinosaurs and whatever the fuck else is deemed to be 'boys things', whilst not rejecting their biology?
MishyJDI · 08/05/2021 10:30

God all of you lot sitting in judgement on these parents and the child, without knowing the situation.

How about let them be parents, and let their child have the freedom to explore. Play with toys they want, dress how they want. Or be a child without such patriarchal boundaries being enforced.

I think its lovely. Children can be children and find their own way over time.

I do love gender diverse people - it is awesome as it messes around with the patriarchy and society structures which are just constructions. That breaks down boundaries moreso than GC conservatism enforcing out dated norms using fear based rhetoric. Bravo!

toffeebutterpopcorn · 08/05/2021 08:47

80s teen here - men’s jeans, men’s dms, men’s braces, shaved hair... called ‘son’ on a few occasions (which amused me because I was very busty). Otherwise I’d wear ball gowns.... or some very cute tailored (and hand made) 1950s dress suits (and accessories). Oh and my dads old suit jackets/overcoats that he had made in the 50s.

Ah yes, the 80s was a time to play. Now fashion and style is so bloody serous.

I wasn’t a boy
I wasn’t a 1950s housewife
I wasn’t my dad
I wasn’t a 1950s Italian soldier
I wasn’t going to a ball
Sadly I wasn’t Annie Lennox either...

motherrunner · 08/05/2021 08:39

I teach a few teenagers who are transitioning and my colleagues and I often comment is it because their role models are social media are so gender rigid? I was a teen in the 90s. Baggy T-shirt’s, jeans and Docs was all we wore (and I still do). We just dressed for comfort and what could easily be taken off to have a wee at a festival! I rarely see boys with long hair or grungy girls.

DH and I still haven’t left the 90s 😆 Neither of us care about image in an aesthetic way. We’re both into fitness but that’s about health. This attitude has passed onto our kids. They wear what is comfortable. DD (9) plays football for a team but she also goes to dance class and Brownies too. DS also plays football but he’s very happy painting. Hobbies and interests are just that - I’m sure some people would call my DD a tomboy and DS ‘sensitive’. They are just them.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 07/05/2021 16:38

When I was younger, and more immature (silly me)... I wanted to be a big bear (so that I could bite peoples heads off and eat them).

I always has a very active imagination.

Delphinium20 · 07/05/2021 15:29

@toffeebutterpopcorn

I was in primary 2 when I was 4, and I remember being that age quite clearly. Thank goodness my parents didn’t take action on my aspirations to become a witch.

Some may say that I did...

Winning post, I think!
PopperUppleton · 07/05/2021 12:13

@browsin

This actually quite scares me. I'm too old for this world.
God me too. I don't want to do this any more
toffeebutterpopcorn · 07/05/2021 11:29

I was in primary 2 when I was 4, and I remember being that age quite clearly. Thank goodness my parents didn’t take action on my aspirations to become a witch.

Some may say that I did...

TheWeeDonkey · 07/05/2021 11:19

@EachDubh

The father states the child has mentioned they are non binary, seriously where would a 4 year old have head this phrase? Most adults still don't really understand it. Abuse by parents amd stating that he had a 4 year olds permission to share is bull. A 4 year can't give permission for this. What the hell is wrong with people. Let the child be whoom ever they want need to be, but stop feeding them drivel they can't understand and putting it in public for all to see.
Abuse can take many forms. I can see this child posting in the Stately Homes thread in 20 years from now.
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