Bbc article: Women shut out of mosques during Ramadan

Babdoc no offence was meant I assure you. Some Christian churches are anti gay (I remember a friend telling me she was ostracised and effectively kicked out when she came out). It's not the majority, as I hope it isn't the majority of mosques that are anti women. But with both there shouldn't any, it seems down to the culture of the leaders and congregation rather than the teaching of the religion itself and some kind of ruling and random inspection might help.

I'll be honest, I picked the Christian homosexuals one as an example I could think of to show that this is not specific to Islam but that all religions have unreasonable outliers who should be prevented from harming others.

I do find it slightly ironic this is being worried about given the many other issues affecting women of certain faiths.

Have enjoyed the BBC wrangling the issue today

Open My Mosque and Side Entrance are two long-running campaigns to provide better access for Muslim women.

I can see loads of rubbish and ignorance here of what Islam (as in qur’an and hadiths) actually say.

1. The correct Islamic view is that women should not be prevented from going to the mosques. If they have no space then effectively the mosque management is not following the correct view.
2. Qur’an specifically says believing men and women must lower their gaze and hence not stare. Segregated areas are just there to help that, much easier to function when the opposite sex is out of the way. I can personally focus much better when men are not in the same space. I use women only gym for this exact reason and I can see a lot of non-Muslim women using the same gym too, makes them more comfortable.
3. It is not mandatory for women to pray in congregation, but it’s mandatory for men. Hence the prioritisation of men’s spaces during covid. However there should be women’s prayer area too during normal times.

Binglebong, what makes you think homosexuals would be ill treated in Christian churches? My own previous minister was a lesbian! She was double qualified as a lawyer and priest, and was instrumental on the national committee that approved gay ministry.
We have gay male members of our congregation, who are made as welcome as everyone else.
And we have had women ministers for over 50 years, including at least two as national Moderator. Christianity is in no way comparable to Islam for misogyny and homophobia.

@musingloud more that men have the obligation to go whether they want to, women do not. I'm not a Muslim, so I can't say.

I absolutely agree that the result is women being excluded, just that the intention may be different. Men are also excluded from women's areas. Women would be socialising and gathering elsewhere, around practices men are excluded from.

It's no longer fit for purpose, as women are expected to have as full a public life as men. It may not have arisen in a deliberate attempt to exclude women from places men do business, rather an assumption that women would have no need, no obligation, to be there.

I've been to Christian conferences where we all divide up into different demographics- the under 30s have different worship sessions from the over 30s, there's singles events and couples events, parenting workshops, men's sessions and women's sessions. It's not to exclude people, it's to offer something tailored to their needs.

You're right, it's not enough. But it would be a start. A statement.

Restaurants etc have to have food safety visit. Maybe this kind of thing could be expanded to all premises that the public access - is there disabled access, do men and women have access to equal facilities (exceptions allowed as equality act re refuges etc, that kind of thing. I believe there was an anti terror programme everyone had to use to prevent extremism in religious settings so it could be tagged on to that.

Personally I'd like to add in are homosexuals treated as second class citizens in Christian churches too. But I'm getting off point, which is that there could be a requirement to have equality and councils could be forced to do random inspections. In most places there wouldn't be more than a could of mosques in an area so it wouldn't take a huge amount of administration (and they could use the extra time to check out other religions).

Attending religious services has been a key social part of social and cultural life in many communities across many religions. Imagine what this says about the status of women that they are not deemed important enough to attend those services?

It also isolates women whilst the men get to do business. It's the same as all male networks.

I really think they shouldn't get planning permission without equality of provision.

I used to run a conversation class for women and was surprised about how matter of fact the muslim women were about not going to the mosque - they were surprised that I was surprised.
(obviously I didn't ask every muslim woman in the group, just the few that I got to know well)
Also, in the mosque that I've visited, the women's section has a very broom-cupboardy feel.

Planning permission could be refused for new or converted mosques though

Even if the plans have a room or space designated for women though, who enforces that women are allowed to use those facilities once the mosque is built?

If an Imam decides his mosque no longer admits women, is it likely that obedient muslims are going to protest that and make a legal challenge?

AFAIK it is the law, but equality law means its the women who are affected that have to bring a case and pay for it.

There was a consultation about equality law and this was recognised as one of the issues. Nothing was done about it.
Planning permission could be refused for new or converted mosques though.

Is it because the requirements of men in Islam are greater- they must pray publicly? Women don't have to do so to be considered good Muslims.

Yep I was suprised to find out that 1/4 of mosques in the UK have no provision for women at all.

Yet Islam is saying it’s an equal religion, womens choice etc and all the “bad” bits are cultural, not religion.

It also strikes me, that men can go to mosque and socialize whereas women remain isolated and confined in the home.

There was a consultation about equality law and this was recognised as one of the issues. Nothing was done about it.

It's funny how misogyny is the same whomever is doing it.

"...it is a voluntary option for women, who can worship at home."

The men can worship at home too then. 🙃

[quote ArabellaScott]www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/crime/edinburgh-woman-sues-mosque-members-over-campaign-of-discrimination-and-sexual-harassment-while-she-regulated-prayer-entry-during-covid-pandemic-3182487?fbclid=IwAR1EGb3TAT59oOlQdCirz4eERwwYdBXRm_rFdOHXEpfsaV7DNX0faieyp2w[/quote]
I hope she wins. Those men need to learn a lesson in respecting women. Misogynistic pricks.

[quote ArabellaScott]www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/crime/edinburgh-woman-sues-mosque-members-over-campaign-of-discrimination-and-sexual-harassment-while-she-regulated-prayer-entry-during-covid-pandemic-3182487?fbclid=IwAR1EGb3TAT59oOlQdCirz4eERwwYdBXRm_rFdOHXEpfsaV7DNX0faieyp2w[/quote]
Just read that. Wow. The men REALLY didn't like having a woman overseeing their entry to the mosque did they? Good for her for taking this action. She's clearly a mighty strong woman.

As an atheist I can't get worked up about not being allowed to pray

That's really not the point.

All religions are man made.
The way they treat women is proof of this.

I saw this. It included that some mosques don't have space for women to pray even without corona. To my mind (and I have no problem with mosques being built anywhere they are needed) it should be a legal requirement that any religious building that separates the sexes have equal provision for both sexes. And by equal I don't just mean room in a broom cupboard - I mean properly equal (although there may be difference required, I really don't know) with room for an equal number and of the same status.

While many families pray together at home, worship in mosques tends to be gender segregated, with many people believing that allows people time to focus on prayer.

No, the reasoning for keeping women at the back or in separate rooms is because otherwise the men will be distracted with staring at women's arses as everyone bends over for prayers. Once again, rather than place the responsibility on men to control themselves and behave respectfully towards women, it's easier to shove women out of the way.

It's going to take a lot to drag Islam into the 21st century. Good luck to the women pushing for at least being recognised as needing equal access for prayers.