Caitlyn Jenner OPPOSES trans girls competing in girls sport

Thanks for the papers! Very interesting. You are always going to get differences the other way round. I expect sally gunnel could still beat my husband in a race. But when we compare elites, men are always going to be faster and stronger than women overall.

Do men also have increased lung capacity? Do women perform worse when they are menstruating? Do men (that obviously don’t have periods) also get anemia as often? So many questions!

The word you're looking for is simply 'Open', I think. Only it would be likely to be dominated by blokes I suppose.
But would that matter, if it kept the male and female categories strictly male and female? I can't see how it wouldn't be a good thing.

@ErrolTheDragon

Yes you are correct . In fact open could apply to any age as well so yes open is a good description .

@2021ismyyear

Yes you have said a similar thing to me . I don’t know what the answer is but there has got to be one somewhere that respects everyone’s rights .
In a way this is not talking about segregation surely it indicates acceptance ?

[quote Unsure33]@Sophoclesthefox

Is the answer not to have three categories . Male , female and ? Oh I don’t know a word that would be completely inoffensive ? Open to whoever wanted to enter ? Freestylers ? Does not not indicate a group who have chosen their identities ?

I honestly don’t know the answer but surely there must be one ?[/quote]
The word you're looking for is simply 'Open', I think. Only it would be likely to be dominated by blokes I suppose.

@Sophoclesthefox

Is the answer not to have three categories . Male , female and ? Oh I don’t know a word that would be completely inoffensive ? Open to whoever wanted to enter ? Freestylers ? Does not not indicate a group who have chosen their identities ?

I honestly don’t know the answer but surely there must be one ?

Someone ought to do a peer reviewed paper on all the differences between trans women and women. Analyse everything... DNA, muscle composition, hormone levels, emotion, psychology... every test possible. If there are no differences over a broad range of these people then fine. Of course there will be lots of differences... because biology.

Emma Hilton and Lundberg have done some work - links here (including Harvey's research):

twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1368174222992961547

How can CJ not be trans? She has had more surgery than most I would imagine ? Unbelievable.

I said that they would work this angle a while back and was told off for being a doom monger!

This must equally apply to male bodied non binary people too, right, or that will also be discriminatory.

The demand being made is this: male bodied people who have made no alterations to their physiology must be included in women’s sports on the grounds of fairness

I’ve really had it with tiptoeing round this silliness and pretending that the aim is not the destruction of the category of women’s sports. It is. Activists will not rest until women’s sports are opened up to any male bodied person who fancies it.

Well, I’m not having it. I will oppose this until my dying day, and I don’t give a shit If anyone calls me a bigot.

Someone ought to do a peer reviewed paper on all the differences between trans women and women. Analyse everything... DNA, muscle composition, hormone levels, emotion, psychology... every test possible. If there are no differences over a broad range of these people then fine. Of course there will be lots of differences... because biology.

Some of the comments on Twitter against CJ from the trans community are horrible. Nasty and mean.

I feel like with maya case and now this, we are on the cusp of realising that biology exists. Science is real. You can call yourself whatever you want but you cannot change science.

If we don’t recognise that biology exists and DNA cannot be switched like trans people want. I don’t want to live on a planet like that.

I think maybe a fair option here, is to create a third type and if you want to compete with other tabs people, go for it. I do not want my girls changing in a changing room with biological boys, or running in races with them.

Anyone that disagrees with CJ on this is insane.

I mean I'm a bit iffy about Caitlin Jenner because of issues raised earlier, but she's not wrong and as an elite athlete she recognises that. I remember watching an episode of I'm a Celebrity get me out of here when she was on it and I was struck by her still very powerful physique. I don't know ma y women in their 60s who look like that.

Well she has gone up in my estimation, a bit of common sense at last.

To me, the "old style" transsexuals always ASKED (rather than demanded) that their pronouns be respected. Many still do take this approach and I'm happy to oblige, especially when they show sympathy for women's feelings. So I will always use "she" in these instances.

If they obviously care nothing for women then I will use a name or "they/them".

I don't think of this as inconsistent - more as mutual respect. If someone's being respectful of women (and maybe getting stick from their own community for doing so) it seems very grudging to withhold their preferred pronoun

I also recognise that gendered pronouns are a language convention and not all languages even have them - if we were all Turkish the debate wouldn't arise!

We ask you to call for inclusion of trans women within cycling competitions without the
dehumanising medical requirement of testosterone monitoring. Alternatives to this system
are that testosterone levels are not measured for both cis and trans competitors, or that
trans women who want to compete in the women’s category provide proof of being on
testosterone suppressants.

Extract from Stonewall advice on completion of cycling consultation.

I think asking Caitlyn Jenner about genitalia isn't fair but her comment about California having bigger things to worry about than pronouns is a simple statement of fact.

Should also be pointed out that in their advice to people filling out the British Cycling consultation, Stonewall recommended that people object to the testosterone lowering imposed on transwomen athletes. So push is not just to include but also to include with no changes to the male physiology of these athletes.

GreyhoundG1rl - calling Caitlin transphobic.. How does this supposedly work?!

Well according to Twitter, Caitlin isn't actually trans. Or Caitlin is but a traitor. It's Schrodinger's Trans all over again. Or should I say, the "wrong" kind of trans.

You know the kind of trans that is causing literal violence, genocide and wants to erase trans people by gatekeeping their existence.

It's all very confusing. I'm having trouble keeping up.

[quote Ereshkigalangcleg]calling Caitlin transphobic.. How does this supposedly work?!

The same way non trans Helen Islan of Mermaids brought an (unsuccessful) hate crime prosecution against MTF trans person Miranda Yardley, which went all the way to court, before being unceremoniously thrown out on the first day by the judge.

[[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6764763/Britains-transgender-hate-crime-trial-halted-one-day.html]][/quote]
God...

As someone with a trans history and sporting background she should know the facts.

Mermaids on twitter making a wishy washy statement. Are they willing to concede that there is a difference in sports?

calling Caitlin transphobic.. How does this supposedly work?!

The same way non trans Helen Islan of Mermaids brought an (unsuccessful) hate crime prosecution against MTF trans person Miranda Yardley, which went all the way to court, before being unceremoniously thrown out on the first day by the judge.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6764763/Britains-transgender-hate-crime-trial-halted-one-day.html

Jenner would have been ridiculed in interviews if any other position than this was taken. It would have been an end to political campaigning. As it happens, this "surprised on the coffee run" comment is serving Jenner rather well.

Women should be demanding follow up questions about what Jenner thinks is fair for girls and women rather than celebrating crumbs.

Yes, definitely.

Had Caitlyn competed in the women's category in 1976, bearing in mind that there wasn't ever a women's decathlon, then Caitlyn would have won the following medals for the following individual events.
100m - gold
400m - gold
Long jump - gold
Javelin - gold
High jump - gold