BBC article on Elliot Page

Elliot does still look feminine SirSamuel and as much as in one way I know that's nobody's business but his, in another I wonder if that is a deliberate choice in how they want to present themselves. For the big Oprah 'reveal' perhaps people were expecting someone more physically 'butch' to come out. Elliot, for someone in their 30s, is still looking and sounding like an awkward teenager and seems to want to regress to an earlier, happier time.

As in looking at it from a "well this person is female" view and ignoring the being trans aspect

Whatever your gender identity, your sex lies beneath it.You can't change or escape from that. And biological sex is often very evident to people. And that is not abuse; it is simply recognising someone's sex.

When you conflate the words gender with female you end up with confusion. 'Female' is a biological signifier.

You can’t be born into the wrong body, it’s physically impossible.

How do you explain the fact that trans people exist then?
Or the fact that there are people out there, who are not trans, but know they are male or female that has absolutely nothing to do with their bodies?
Would feel a distressing disconnect if suddenly got dropped into the opposite sexes body (yes, I'm aware this is going to get dismissed as a thought experiment, but not sure how else to word it)
Do none of these people exist if it doesn't apply to you?
Everyone's deluded if it doesn't fit your (general your) worldview?

Page looks like a person who is dangerously underweight and frail. Page also looks female. The lack of breast tissue, the haircut and the clothes do nothing to change the overwhelming femaleness of Page's body.

I agree. It’s very sad to witness.
You can’t be born into the wrong body, it’s physically impossible.

Some of these comments commenting on his appearance, trying to paint as a fragile, lost little vulnerable person, are just a bit..... hmmm.

• kind of like trying to insinuate he doesn't know his own mind. Kind of like denying that they're trans, and just don't know better/and/or poorly or whatever.

Page looks like a person who is dangerously underweight and frail. Page also looks female. The lack of breast tissue, the haircut and the clothes do nothing to change the overwhelming femaleness of Page's body.

Quagaars, that it the point Elliot made though, that clothes traditionally thought of as 'female' made them feel distressed.

Yes, I know - but if you're not female (as in a trans man), then it would make him distressed, wouldn't it.
Me, not so much, as not trans.
We're all making the same points, but with some posters not accepting that it's not going to be the same for a trans person than it would be for someone who is non trans.
As in looking at it from a "well this person is female" view and ignoring the being trans aspect.

[quote IvyTwines2]@forfucksakenett

But the 'red carpet' is another form of performance, and I think most people recognise this. We watch it like a very high-end catwalk show or even in the way we watch something like Drag Race, given how lavish and OTT some of the outfits are (Bjork's swan dress, for instance, or anything for the Met Ball). Very few viewers think these outfits, likely chosen by stylists or fashion houses, represent the actor's day-to-day 'authentic self'.[/quote]
No it's not a performance as such. It's a place where you present yourself. You're not in character.

Quagaars, that it the point Elliot made though, that clothes traditionally thought of as 'female' made them feel distressed. The clothing is a bit of a red herring though - in the video, Elliot just looks like a young person wearing casual clothes which are worn by young people of both sexes - I've had a bit of a flick round the 'net and can't find a picture of them anywhere in particularly 'feminine' clothing, even on the red carpet - lots of suits and ties, some plain and simple black dresses and a couple of very simple coloured dresses.

I can remember a few years ago a friend of mine had a daughter who was a complete tomboy, very sporty only wore trackies or shorts, even jeans were a step too far. it seemed obvious to me that the girl was just emulating her beloved older brother and srtuggling to come to terms with her changing body. They would have battles over the fact she refused to wear desses or feminine clothes for fomal occassions.

Isn't the labelling of girls as 'Tom Boys' a precursor to them being labelled as 'trans boys'? Why would a preference for particular clothes (which are arguably more practical and comfortable for most people) require a categorisation but only if its a girl making such a choice?

That Magdalen Berns video was really interesting and I felt sorry for Ash Hardell that they felt that they had to take the route they did to feel authentic.

I can remember a few years ago a friend of mine had a daughter who was a complete tomboy, very sporty only wore trackies or shorts, even jeans were a step too far. it seemed obvious to me that the girl was just emulating her beloved older brother and srtuggling to come to terms with her changing body. They would have battles over the fact she refused to wear desses or feminine clothes for fomal occassions.

This thread is just making me think of them. In their family they just allowed the daughter to be herself and develop naturally and she has become a happy and secure young woman.

I do wonder at what the entertainment industry does to young people, not many of them come out of it unscathed.

There are plenty of girls and women who have high levels of distress/discomfort including anxiety about the clothes they are required to wear.

Well, quite.
I wouldn't personally presume to equate the fact I hate wearing high heels and can't stand the feel of wearing make up with being trans though.
It just means I'm a woman, who isn't trans, who doesn't like wearing make up or heels.

being forced to wear the stereotypical outfits of a gender you don't identify with in order to be perceived as 'normal'.

Even if you are being "forced to wear something", the answer is not to concede and go "if I say I'm not a woman, then will you let me wear what I want?"

That's horrifying.

Check out that Magdalen Berns video upthread. Watching Ash Hardell and her thought processes is like confronting some sort of psychological horror. And it seems that Paige is articulating something quite similar.

You're basically saying what I'm saying but just not acknowledging that trans and non trans people are not going to have the same experiences or reactions.

There are plenty of girls and women who have high levels of distress/discomfort including anxiety about the clothes they are required to wear.
I dont think many men appreciate this.

@forfucksakenett

But the 'red carpet' is another form of performance, and I think most people recognise this. We watch it like a very high-end catwalk show or even in the way we watch something like Drag Race, given how lavish and OTT some of the outfits are (Bjork's swan dress, for instance, or anything for the Met Ball). Very few viewers think these outfits, likely chosen by stylists or fashion houses, represent the actor's day-to-day 'authentic self'.

The sense was that if you are, say, a man, and find yourself in a situation in clothing that isn't generally considered gender conforming, while you might be embarrassed or feel silly, you would not likely have a panic attack.

Well yes, because they presumably wouldn't be trans!
If it was a biological man in non gender conforming clothes, as you say might just feel uncomfortable or as you put it. embarrassed or a bit silly.
The suggestion is that someone like page having that response suggests that there is some deeper issue around the body that is not explained by actually being a man
Yes... something deeper.... as in being trans!
You're conflating being trans with not being trans, and applying the same to both.
It stands to reason people who aren't trans and are happy being in their body will just feel a bit daft in a dress or whatever like you say.
You're basically saying what I'm saying but just not acknowledging that trans and non trans people are not going to have the same experiences or reactions.

That is truly disturbing SmokedDuck Do people really understand the harm they are doing to impressionable young people?

Plus he is currently dealing with a divorce so let's not make judgements on that and his physical wellbeing without knowing the full situation

Yet it's OK to make judgements about trans widows in that situation, and to try and get them banned from Twitter.

[quote Quaagars]@DIshedUp
In terms of having a panic attack in the dress would most men have a panic attack if they had to wear a dress? Would they actually feel distressed at presenting as female or just a bit self conscious and silly?

Surely that's not an equal comparison, though?
For a more equal comparison when you're trans it would be the opposite - in other words a man dressing up in a suit and a tie and having a panic attack.
Stands to reason that if a trans man can have panic attacks from wearing dresses, the equivalent of a trans woman having one would be from wearing say a suit and tie or whatever.[/quote]
No, what you are suggesting is not what the comment was saying at all.

The sense was that if you are, say, a man, and find yourself in a situation in clothing that isn't generally considered gender conforming, while you might be embarrassed or feel silly, you would not likely have a panic attack.

The suggestion is that someone like page having that response suggests that there is some deeper issue around the body that is not explained by actually being a man.

My message has been deleted, but the Guardian's own Susanna Rustin is making the same point on Twitter today.

[quote IvyTwines2]@Notagain20 This is my main objection to the pronouns-in-bio thing - every celeb with a young fanbase has them prominently in their social media bio and it's a constant barrage, everywhere these kids look, that asks children and young people to re-evaluate themselves into boxes based on deeply regressive social stereotypes. You like dinosaurs and football, you think party frocks are silly, are you sure you're a girl, are you sure? You might be a boy you know.[/quote]
My daughter was deeply affected by this at a camp she attended, where they were asked every morning what their pronouns for the day were.

It seemed to throw her into this existential crises where she had to know WHA HE WAS and remove all girl clothes from her wardrobe and any discomfort around her body (Which was lots, she was 13) had some deeper meaning.

She's already inclined to hyper-focus on stuff and get anxious, and she was in a really bad way for several months. And she couldn't sort through the ideas around gender very well intellectually, it was just a little too far beyond her development and experience. And she figured I was a bigot.

Thankfully her dad turned out to be good at talking to her about it, which I totally didn't expect as he is kind of a no bs, in many ways very stereotypically manly guy. He basically told her that her thinking was sexist and she should just be herself. In the end she decided maybe she didn't need to put herself in a box and be just one thing, and she actually liked dresses sometimes anyway, but I was really startled at how deeply that thinking had taken hold, and she picked up all the lingo really fast, wanting to change her name, pronouns, get a binder, etc.