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Original poster

Pronouns in email signatures - advice and arguments please

144 replies

AdultHumanFemale77777 · 30/04/2021 22:27

I work in a medium sized organisation and have influence in decisions around equality and diversity. I am due in a meeting in the next few weeks where we will discuss whether to suggest(/mandate?!) pronouns in email signatures. I would like to do some research and have well reasoned arguments as to why this is a terrible idea. So far I have - I don't fucking want to, it's performative wokeness at best and actively damaging to women. If we cared about trans identifying people that much we'd pay for proper counselling for dysmorphia.
I would be very grateful for any advice or suggestions for points I can bring to this meeting. Conscious of being branded xyz-phobic for wanting to stick up for actual women.

OP posts:
CardinalLolzy · 30/04/2021 23:13

When people ask why you did something, they are asking why you wanted to do it, why you chose to do it.

Scepticaltank · 30/04/2021 23:13

It is about as useful as taking a doormat to work with me.

ASugarr · 30/04/2021 23:11

Because I wanted to. It's useful due to the nature of my job and it's just a very simple change.

ASugarr · 30/04/2021 23:11

@ArabellaScott

Look, even if you are all for gender ideology and everyone choosing their own unique and personalised pronouns, you just CANNOT make it compulsory. It's an invasion of privacy, probably Data Protection dodgy, it's rude, invasive, pushy and bullying. Make it clear that if people want to share their pronouns, that's fine - I cannot see making it compulsory as anything other than exposing staff to sexism and potential discrimination.
You realize it's not just for transgender people to be more comfortable and all right? Anyone who doesn't express themselves through stereotypical gender expression it helps. For example, a masculine woman. There are many times in which we use gendered pronouns and it's respectful to know someone else's. It isn't always when they are out of the room either. Many people forget that we use gendered pronouns when those people are around too. It actually is just a nice, simple way of showing respect and making life easier for everyone.
MrsRockAndRoll · 30/04/2021 23:09

@ASugarr

I have used pronouns on my emails and zoom calls for over a year and it's been helpful and hasn't caused any issues.
Can I ask why you decided this and in what way it's useful? Really interested to understand
ArabellaScott · 30/04/2021 23:07

Look, even if you are all for gender ideology and everyone choosing their own unique and personalised pronouns, you just CANNOT make it compulsory. It's an invasion of privacy, probably Data Protection dodgy, it's rude, invasive, pushy and bullying. Make it clear that if people want to share their pronouns, that's fine - I cannot see making it compulsory as anything other than exposing staff to sexism and potential discrimination.

CardinalLolzy · 30/04/2021 23:06

"Why doesn't that matter to you?"
"Because it doesn't"

Are my 5 year olds on here?!

CardinalLolzy · 30/04/2021 23:05

To be clear there's nothing wrong with telling people your pronouns but to require everyone to declare them seems intrusive and unnecessary.

I0NA · 30/04/2021 23:05

It will take up a lot of space on your email, as the full list of pronouns and pronominal adjectives is very long.

  • all
  • another
  • any
  • anybody
  • anyone
  • anything
  • as
  • aught
  • both
  • each
  • each other
  • either
  • enough
  • everybody
  • everyone
  • everything
  • few
  • he
  • her
  • hers
  • herself
  • him
  • himself
  • his
  • I
  • idem
  • it
  • its
  • itself
  • many
  • me
  • mine
  • most
  • my
  • myself
  • naught
  • neither
  • no one
  • nobody
  • none
  • nothing
  • nought
  • one
  • one another
  • other
  • others
  • ought
  • our
  • ours
  • ourself
  • ourselves
  • several
  • she
  • some
  • somebody
  • someone
  • something
  • somewhat
  • such
  • suchlike
  • that
  • thee
  • their
  • theirs
  • theirself
  • theirselves
  • them
  • themself
  • themselves
  • there
  • these
  • they
  • thine
  • this
  • those
  • thou
  • thy
  • thyself
  • us
  • we
  • what
  • whatever
  • whatnot
  • whatsoever
  • whence
  • where
  • whereby
  • wherefrom
  • wherein
  • whereinto
  • whereof
  • whereon
  • wherever
  • wheresoever
  • whereto
  • whereunto
  • wherewith
  • wherewithal
  • whether
  • which
  • whichever
  • whichsoever
  • who
  • whoever
  • whom
  • whomever
  • whomso
  • whomsoever
  • whose
  • whosever
  • whosesoever
  • whoso
  • whosoever
  • ye
  • yon
  • yonder
  • you
  • your
  • yours
  • yourself
  • yourselves
ASugarr · 30/04/2021 23:04

@UnkindlyMay

It disadvantages women, ASugarr. Why doesn’t that matter to you?
Because it doesn't.
Scepticaltank · 30/04/2021 23:04

A few more steps to ask them about.

Are they going to dump this monitoring on HR as an employee relations activity?

Does the existing HR team have the capacity to start creating 100s or 1,000s of new employee relations cases to deal with over email signatures.

Does the management team have buy in to accept the time commitment needed for mangers to independently participate in disciplinaries, appeals and grievance investigations from the employees you have spied on?

Lots to figure out before you kick that project off.

CardinalLolzy · 30/04/2021 23:04

Does GDPR allow you to hold this data about everyone?

UnkindlyMay · 30/04/2021 23:03

It disadvantages women, ASugarr. Why doesn’t that matter to you?

FeckTheMagicDragon · 30/04/2021 23:03

I work with people across the globe and while we all can often make assumptions about the sex of a person based on their name in print, I don’t need to know if someone is male or female to be able to work with them, and I don’t assume. I try to stay open minded about people’s abilities - which should have nothing to do with any of their protected characteristics.

ListeningQuietly · 30/04/2021 23:01

My pronouns are "oi" and "yo"
My name is my own
I do not use a marital title (despite still adoring my husband)
and will not tolerate people who want to categorise me

CorvusPurpureus · 30/04/2021 23:00

Hard no.

It is unfair on everyone who doesn't want to declare a gender identity, whether because they don't have one - this will be the majority - or because they do subscribe to the ideology, but aren't comfortable 'outing' themselves at work.

It's no more appropriate than asking people to add their star sign or food allergies. No one needs to know whether someone they're sending an email to even has a gender identity &/or an opinion on other people's use of pronouns to describe them.

It's at best irrelevant & at worst intrusive.

partyatthepalace · 30/04/2021 23:00

It’s a gross invasion of personal freedom to make them mandatory or ‘suggest’ (ie pressure) them. I find it extraordinary any ethical organisation would suggest this. It is absolutely no business of an employer.

As a pp said women perform worse is tasks when they are reminded of their gender beforehand, and as women’s competence at work is rated lower, for female staff reminded everyone they are ‘she’ in every email is not a positive thing.

MeadowHay · 30/04/2021 22:59

@ASugarr

It's been helpful when talking to and meeting new people. It's made it easier for young people we speak to feel more comfortable and especially anyone who is transgender (which we have a few collegues and young people we support who are). It hasn't negatively affected the workplace and it's a simple change to make.
I don't understand why your pronouns in an email signature would make any difference to 'talking to and meeting new people'? How would knowing your preferred pronouns actually make any difference to meeting or talking to someone for the first time in a work environment? Presumably nobody is going to be using third person pronouns when they are having a conversation with you? I also don't understand how you having your pronouns in your email signature would make other people feel more comfortable - what have your own preferred pronouns got to do with how anyone else feels, identifies, or wants to be referred as? Just genuinely don't understand Confused. I speak to loads of people via email at work, internally and externally, and sometimes I don't know the sex or gender identity of the person I'm talking to. I don't need to though anyway, why would I need to know that information when I'm emailing someone about work?
ASugarr · 30/04/2021 22:58

Transgender people can just use they/them or any pronouns they wish if they don't want to be 'out'. Many transgender people won't even mention they are transgender at work or anything. They will just be like everyone else.

silentpool · 30/04/2021 22:57

I plan to ignore it entirely. Let them do the work to convince me...Grin

DdraigGoch · 30/04/2021 22:55

@ASugarr

I have used pronouns on my emails and zoom calls for over a year and it's been helpful and hasn't caused any issues.
You do you. This isn't about whether individuals choose to include their preferred pronouns, this is about whether they should be mandated for all.

OP, good reasons for not mandating them are that it could force trans people to 'out' themselves before they are quite ready, plus there is often unconscious bias if people know that they are dealing with a woman.

LuellaPilkington · 30/04/2021 22:54

Love the idea of out-Woking them.
But also- just keep it optional.

Waitwhat23 · 30/04/2021 22:53

I saw someone on here say that their response was to say that they wouldn't be declaring any of their protected characteristics in an email signature and if pressed, would ask why she was being expected to highlight that particular one which I thought was a good response.

Scepticaltank · 30/04/2021 22:49

I would ask them what they plan to do to monitor it.

Are they going to recruit a team of pronoun email monitors that write to everyone asking them to prove they have complied? How much are they going to budget for these jobs/ How many people per day do they have to contact?

If they are not going to hire special people to contact everyone are they going to set employees up to spy and inform on colleagues as an inclusive culture building strategy? Will there be pay for this task or is it part of the companies Volunteer culture?

What do they plan to do with the people that haven't complied? If it is members of the Exec Committee that haven't done it will it be ignored?

Will there be stages of disciplinary action people will go through. What are they?

Have the legal department consulted with a QC about the disciplinary action, spying, and enforced monitoring plans?

How much will you be setting aside for legal advice on legal enforcement.