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Original poster

Pronouns in email signatures - advice and arguments please

144 replies

AdultHumanFemale77777 · 30/04/2021 22:27

I work in a medium sized organisation and have influence in decisions around equality and diversity. I am due in a meeting in the next few weeks where we will discuss whether to suggest(/mandate?!) pronouns in email signatures. I would like to do some research and have well reasoned arguments as to why this is a terrible idea. So far I have - I don't fucking want to, it's performative wokeness at best and actively damaging to women. If we cared about trans identifying people that much we'd pay for proper counselling for dysmorphia.
I would be very grateful for any advice or suggestions for points I can bring to this meeting. Conscious of being branded xyz-phobic for wanting to stick up for actual women.

OP posts:
ASugarr · 30/04/2021 23:27

@CardinalLolzy

Right, then ASugarr - your argument is literally that words that are used frequently cannot cause harm.

Exactly what racists say. I'm afraid I disagree strongly with this vile reasoning.

Don't see how she/her, they/them, he/him are harmful. Not really the same thing as racist terms.
CardinalLolzy · 30/04/2021 23:26

Right, then ASugarr - your argument is literally that words that are used frequently cannot cause harm.

Exactly what racists say. I'm afraid I disagree strongly with this vile reasoning.

Scepticaltank · 30/04/2021 23:26

@CardinalLolzy

It's notable that some people are incapable at interrogating the motivations for their own actions. Doing things without being able to say what the reason is. And then declaring that 'it doesn't matter' that the same thing disadvantages a particular group.

I've seen these types of people suddenly come under scrutiny in the last couple of years as their actions are held up to light - as power imbalances are attempted to be addressed.

Absolutely. They queue up at the HR door.
CorvusPurpureus · 30/04/2021 23:25

Being 'proud of being a woman' sounds great, especially if we have a useful definition of who these proud women are.

Meanwhile, my email signature will remain:
C. Purpureus
Head of Widget Studies

You need to know that I'm the person to take it up with if you are unhappy about things widget related, or you've got a great idea for something widget-y.

You don't need to know my sex, shoe size, what I had for breakfast or my preferred pronouns/adverbs/gerunds.

BadGherkin · 30/04/2021 23:25

It is performative and woke-signalling - as clearly demonstrated both on this thread and others.

FeckTheMagicDragon · 30/04/2021 23:25

Disadvantaging women doesn’t matter to you ASugarr. It’s matters to most of the women on this board. Compelled speech in the matter of pronouns use has caused women pain, lost them jobs, silenced them.

You don’t care about women. You said so.

CardinalLolzy · 30/04/2021 23:25

@ArabellaScott

Yogyakarta principle 6 notes that nobody should be forced to disclose their gender identity.
Will just reiterate this, then...
ASugarr · 30/04/2021 23:24

@CardinalLolzy

You think pronouns are an ideology? It's basic English.

Can you explain what you mean by saying pronouns are basic English? Do you mean they form part of the English language, as do all words used to express ideologies? You're going to have to be a bit more specific than that!

I mean you literally just used them in your answer. Pronouns are everywhere. We use them every single day in almost every sentence we make. Including gendered pronojns. Which is why putting a simple little she/her in your emails does no harm.
Waitwhat23 · 30/04/2021 23:24

A friendly reminder to everyone, the deletions will start soon...it's as predictable as the tides.

CardinalLolzy · 30/04/2021 23:23

Not giving a shit what sexism comes with letting others know you are a woman.

I don't understand this sentence. I'm not sure it makes any sense. Is it basic English?

CardinalLolzy · 30/04/2021 23:23

You think pronouns are an ideology? It's basic English.

Can you explain what you mean by saying pronouns are basic English? Do you mean they form part of the English language, as do all words used to express ideologies? You're going to have to be a bit more specific than that!

quixote9 · 30/04/2021 23:22

I love this "hasn't caused any issues" stuff. O rly? Have you noticed what happens to women who raise "issues"? Maya Forstater? Just to name one. All the hundreds of supportive, but anonymous-because-terrified emails by women to women who dare to speak out?

No issues. Yeah, right.

As DdraigGoch said, you do you. With so little fellow feeling, don't even begin to tell others what to do.

ASugarr · 30/04/2021 23:22

@FeckTheMagicDragon

UnkindlyMay It disadvantages women, ASugarr. Why doesn’t that matter to you?

"Because it doesn't"

It’s does make you wonder why some people are so eager to post so often on a Women’s right board if they don’t care about women …

Pronouns don't change that issue. Challenging sexism does. Meaning standing up as women. Not giving a shit what sexism comes with letting others know you are a woman. If that isn't a feminist then I don't know what is.
FeckTheMagicDragon · 30/04/2021 23:20

UnkindlyMay
It disadvantages women, ASugarr. Why doesn’t that matter to you?

"Because it doesn't"

It’s does make you wonder why some people are so eager to post so often on a Women’s right board if they don’t care about women …

ASugarr · 30/04/2021 23:20

@redglobox

It would be asking employees to express belief in an ideology that the majority of people do not subscribe to. Even when optional, employees could feel pressurised to do this. Inappropriate to indicate belief in any particular ideology in company correspondence. Discrimination concerns re: protected gender critical beliefs.
You think pronouns are an ideology? It's basic English.
ASugarr · 30/04/2021 23:19

@UnkindlyMay

Don’t be a chump, ASugarr. It disadvantages women.

I have a neutral name and it’s useful to be assumed male by the more sexist of my clients. There are a lot of sexist people in the world.

‘Declaring my pronouns’ would disadvantage me. I’ve seen it happen before and I’m not doing it.

How does it disadvantage woman? And how is not putting them there solving that issue? Maybe the issue of sexism in the workplace needs to be actually solved instead of ignored and not pushing for women to break that norm and not allowing women to be proud to be women.
CardinalLolzy · 30/04/2021 23:19

It's notable that some people are incapable at interrogating the motivations for their own actions. Doing things without being able to say what the reason is.
And then declaring that 'it doesn't matter' that the same thing disadvantages a particular group.

I've seen these types of people suddenly come under scrutiny in the last couple of years as their actions are held up to light - as power imbalances are attempted to be addressed.

redglobox · 30/04/2021 23:18

It would be asking employees to express belief in an ideology that the majority of people do not subscribe to. Even when optional, employees could feel pressurised to do this. Inappropriate to indicate belief in any particular ideology in company correspondence. Discrimination concerns re: protected gender critical beliefs.

BadGherkin · 30/04/2021 23:17

Pronouns in an email signature or on a social media bio are an immediate and huge red flag for me. Time and again it has proved (to me) to be a very accurate indicator or reflection of a very specific focus.

Scepticaltank · 30/04/2021 23:17

@MrsRockAndRoll

That is an under rated post. It's a 10 from me.

UnkindlyMay · 30/04/2021 23:16

Don’t be a chump, ASugarr. It disadvantages women.

I have a neutral name and it’s useful to be assumed male by the more sexist of my clients. There are a lot of sexist people in the world.

‘Declaring my pronouns’ would disadvantage me. I’ve seen it happen before and I’m not doing it.

ArabellaScott · 30/04/2021 23:15

Also plenty of transpeople who have specifically asked people not to compel pronouns. You've not read those requests, I take it? Or do they not matter, either?

MrsRockAndRoll · 30/04/2021 23:15

@I0NA

It will take up a lot of space on your email, as the full list of pronouns and pronominal adjectives is very long.
  • all
  • another
  • any
  • anybody
  • anyone
  • anything
  • as
  • aught
  • both
  • each
  • each other
  • either
  • enough
  • everybody
  • everyone
  • everything
  • few
  • he
  • her
  • hers
  • herself
  • him
  • himself
  • his
  • I
  • idem
  • it
  • its
  • itself
  • many
  • me
  • mine
  • most
  • my
  • myself
  • naught
  • neither
  • no one
  • nobody
  • none
  • nothing
  • nought
  • one
  • one another
  • other
  • others
  • ought
  • our
  • ours
  • ourself
  • ourselves
  • several
  • she
  • some
  • somebody
  • someone
  • something
  • somewhat
  • such
  • suchlike
  • that
  • thee
  • their
  • theirs
  • theirself
  • theirselves
  • them
  • themself
  • themselves
  • there
  • these
  • they
  • thine
  • this
  • those
  • thou
  • thy
  • thyself
  • us
  • we
  • what
  • whatever
  • whatnot
  • whatsoever
  • whence
  • where
  • whereby
  • wherefrom
  • wherein
  • whereinto
  • whereof
  • whereon
  • wherever
  • wheresoever
  • whereto
  • whereunto
  • wherewith
  • wherewithal
  • whether
  • which
  • whichever
  • whichsoever
  • who
  • whoever
  • whom
  • whomever
  • whomso
  • whomsoever
  • whose
  • whosever
  • whosesoever
  • whoso
  • whosoever
  • ye
  • yon
  • yonder
  • you
  • your
  • yours
  • yourself
  • yourselves
SmileStar
ArabellaScott · 30/04/2021 23:14

There's thread upon thread of women describing how it makes them feel marginalised, targeted, uncomfortable, pressurised, angry, triggered, etc.

So how exactly is that making life easier for 'everyone'? Everone except the women here, talking to you? How come you don't recognise our wants, needs, wishes, feelings?

ASugarr · 30/04/2021 23:14

@CardinalLolzy

When people ask why you did something, they are asking why you wanted to do it, why you chose to do it.
Because it's just a simple thing to do. Don't see the issue in not doing it.