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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya Forstater is entitled to her views, but anti-transgender beliefs don’t belong in the workplace

235 replies

Trixie78 · 27/04/2021 20:54

I don't even know where to start with the inaccuracies in this article. It's making my blood boil.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/maya-forstater-rowling-trans-b1838137.html

OP posts:
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6
TinselAngel · 28/04/2021 22:01

Journalism, it's not something everyone can do.

R0wantrees · 28/04/2021 19:35

Compare and contrast yesterday's Independent's opinion piece by Robin White and Molly Mulready with today's article by Jo Batosch (a journalist) for The Critic

28 April, 2021
'Is a victory for freedom of speech in sight?'
(extract)

"The arguments made before the EAT were eloquent and compelling, with references to the big beasts of liberty and free speech, from JS Mill to George Orwell. And yet, there was something surreal about watching the highly qualified barrister Ben Cooper QC explaining common sense to the Court as if it were some fringe, esoteric belief. As legal commentator Joshua Rozenberg notes in his analysis of the arguments, “There is nothing scandalous or reprehensible about [Forstater’s] beliefs. For many, they represent prevailing orthodoxy.”

The fleshy 50-page skeleton argument produced by Forstater’s legal team picked apart the original Employment Tribunal (ET) ruling with merciless, forensic precision. Interventions from Karon Monaghan QC of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) and Aileen McColgan QC from Index on Censorship also pointed the finger at errors in the original case, the latter “respectfully” suggesting that “the ET took the wrong approach”.

Central to the case in Forstater’s favour is Article 9 of European Convention on Human Rights, which guarantees “the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion”. Categorising Forstater’s observation about the biological reality of sex a “belief” seems topsy-turvy, but as noted in EHRC skeleton papers, “A belief may be theistic but may too be based in a belief that something is a scientific reality.”

In the original ruling Judge Tayler stated: “The claimant is absolutist in her view of sex and it is a core component of her belief that she will refer to a person by the sex she considered appropriate even if it violates their dignity and/or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment.”

But Forstater has been clear that she will refer to individuals according to their preference and not seek to cause offence; she simply reserves the right to refer to sex when she deems it relevant. As Cooper told the Court yesterday: “Freedom of speech emphatically extends to that which might offend … to insist on preferred pronouns is compelled speech.”

As noted by EHRC, the original ET ruling “spent two pages addressing the disadvantages experienced by transpeople” and “three pages on the protections the law provides to transpeople against discrimination”. The inference here is clear, the ET indulged in a value judgement about the validity Forstater’s beliefs, rather than addressing her right to hold them. As noted by Rozenberg, “It is surprising and worrying that the tribunal saw it as its role to dissect beliefs in this way and to dictate what is or is not an acceptable basis for a belief; and it shows just how far off the rails the tribunal went.”

One suspects that today Judge James Tayler will be feeling somewhat judged. In the two years since he passed judgement things have changed; the illogical and petulant demands of trans activists are being challenged. (continues)

concludes
From the Equal Treatment Bench Book (the guidance to which judges refer) to the Ministry of Justice’s membership of the Stonewall Champions Scheme, transgender ideology has permeated the judiciary. But slowly, as cases are put before the higher courts, much needed light and scrutiny is being shone on policies made in the dark.

Should Maya Forstater win, it will not simply be a victory for her; heterodox thinkers across the UK will breathe a sigh of relief. No-one should face the loss of their livelihood or any stain on their reputation for telling the truth."
thecritic.co.uk/is-a-victory-for-freedom-of-speech-in-sight/

Mulletsaremisunderstood · 28/04/2021 11:19

@WindyPudding

This again - this fundamentally false claim that wanting to be able to “believe in” (I.e. accept) and live by reality is “anti-trans” or somehow to do with wanting to hurt people’s feelings and discriminate against them for the sake of it.

I have always known that sex exists in humans, is functionally binary, is important in some situations and cannot be literally changed. It never for a second occurred to me to even think about trans issues much at all let alone in a negative way, until some trans activists started demanding that I literally believe a man is a woman, that all you have to do make it so is to say so, and that I can’t have my own reality-based opinions on the matter on pain of being sacked. That behaviour is discriminatory and attacking - believing sex exists isn’t.

I don’t feel unable to cope with the fact that some people have different beliefs from me or feel attacked by it. Because some trans people and their allies do, they’re attempting to make society have only one belief, one that’s counter to a biological reality we all actually have to live by.

If we can’t stand up against that then we’re basically heading for a totalitarian, thought-policing, faith-based state. Not wanting that is nothing to do with hating trans people. Lots of trans people agree with what I say here themselves. Even the ones who are trying to push this idiocy, I don’t hate, I don’t mind them identifying as trans, I think they should have the same protections as anyone else.

But no other group is protected from having to listen to people talking about reality because it hurts their feelings.

I wish I could thank this post 100 times!

Underneath all of this is such a sinister attempt to manipulate and intimidate those who don't agree with their view of themselves. Everyone should be worried about this, whatever side of this debate they are on.

I would love to ask all those on the side of the TRAs, what happens when something comes along that you don't agree with - will you be brave enough to stand up and say so, or will you be too afraid that the frothing mob will come after you.

It's not even about the topic, it's about the fact that we are not allowed to disagree with or debate the topic without aggressive reprisal.

R0wantrees · 28/04/2021 10:59

Women & Equalities Committee
Oral evidence: Reform of the Gender Recognition
Act, HC 884
Wednesday 10 February 2021

67-68
Karon Monaghan: ...The Equality Act works by
protecting people against discrimination because they have got particular characteristics. One set of characteristics that is protected under the Act concerns gender reassignment. If you are a person who is undergoing, or has undergone, gender reassignment, you are protected against discrimination, just as you are protected against discrimination because you are disabled, from an ethnic minority group and so on.
Separately, the Equality Act protects against sex discrimination, and it defines sex very precisely as being a man or being a woman. Then it
defines being a man or being a woman as being male or female.
So
“gender reassignment” is concerned with protecting trans people or people who are undergoing gender reassignment against discrimination, and the Act separately protects females and males against sex discrimination. (continues)

Naomi Cunningham: I would just like to finish this thought, if I may. The fact that all those exceptions are founded on biological sex means that although the legal formalities of justifying excluding an individual with a GRC from a women-only service or space may be slightly different, in practice the answer is likely to be the same in almost every situation, because in practice it makes no difference whether someone has a certificate or not. It doesn’t make a difference to whether it impinges on the dignity and privacy of women using that service, or overrides their consent.
For example, if I use a women-only changing room, my consent is to
undress in the company of other women, and the reason why parliament has said that I am entitled to have the benefit of those exceptions is to do with biological sex. The fact that somebody has a gender recognition certificate doesn’t actually change that. It doesn’t mean that I feel more comfortable in the presence of somebody, in that particular situation, who I experience as male. A certificate doesn’t make a difference. I think that is quite important to understand, and how commonplace this is and how fundamentally it is based on consent. To override that is seriously concerning.

Robin Moira White: I slightly disagree with Karon on the analysis of the Act and I think it is important.
... The definition in the Equality Act is that a woman is a female of any age and a man is a male of any age. Forgive me, Karon’s analysis is perfectly intellectually valid, but a different analysis—and we haven’t tried this through—is that all that those definitions do is say that a girl is a woman and a boy is a man. ELA’s view is that there is a complete lack of clarity about that in the Act, so working out who is in which sex for the purposes of the Act is still something that needs to be clarified either in terms of litigation or in more legislation"

NB Karon Monighan QC represented EHRC's intervention for Maya Fostater's Appeal yesterday
hiyamaya.files.wordpress.com/2021/04/forstater-submissions-ehrc-final-amended.pdf

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/04/2021 10:44

The Independent is regulated about as much as Pink News.

everybodysang · 28/04/2021 10:44

fantastic article. Very glad you brought it to my attention, thank you.

R0wantrees · 28/04/2021 10:40

I can't even muster the slightest desire to read anything printed in the Indie these days. It's just become the most fact-free online whifflepaper.

One of the authors of the opinion piece (Robin White) is a self-described, "trans pioneer in the legal profession", providing evidence to Women and Equalities Committee, influencing women's political representation campaigns such as 50-50, publishing legal guide and advising employers/ trade bodies. However poor and lamentable The Independent's editorial standards are now, the article warrants some analysis.

relevant background:
Article by Robin White for legal 500

October 2019

see screenshots for extracts including,

Characterisation of gender critical feminists seeking to protect Safeguarding and women's sex based rights as being those who "would have trans rights rolled back or restricted" which White describes as "just silly".

Assertion that having undertaken various cosmetic surgeries (details included) a male barrister becomes a "female barrister" and "true self"

Claim of need for employers to provide "advanced Equality training" no doubt offered by White and perhaps a little ahead of the actual law?

indd.adobe.com/view/555ccd58-1fd7-4dae-b545-043723d3e299

Women & Equalities Committee
Oral evidence: Reform of the Gender Recognition
Act, HC 884
Wednesday 10 February 2021
(extract)
Q60 Angela Crawley: Now, the concept of the gender recognition panel is obviously to review applications for gender recognition. Robin, I appreciate you said you do not have a gender recognition certificate, but what process or system do you think should be considered in place of a gender recognition panel?

Robin Moira White: Here I am speaking really quite personally. At the
time I went through transition, the idea of then resubmitting myself for assessment by a group of people to validate what I have done— As it happens I tick every box, and here I am 10 years on, thinking why would I bother now, frankly." (continues)

committees.parliament.uk/oralevidence/1693/default/

Maya Forstater is entitled to her views, but anti-transgender beliefs don’t belong in the workplace
Maya Forstater is entitled to her views, but anti-transgender beliefs don’t belong in the workplace
Maya Forstater is entitled to her views, but anti-transgender beliefs don’t belong in the workplace
ArabellaScott · 28/04/2021 10:32

Is the Independent regulated by anyone?

ANewCreation · 28/04/2021 10:29

These are some of the Core Principles of Ethical Journalism:

  1. Truth & Accuracy
  2. Independence/objectivity
  3. Fairness & Impartiality
  4. Humanity
  5. Accountability

I know it's just an opinion piece on a glorified Saudi/Russian oligarch's blog site but this is really poor on all counts.

As we were reminded yesterday, Maya's belief in the immutability of sex is already protected under the Equality Act.

"Thus, Sch 3, para 24 provides that it is not unlawful gender reassignment discrimination for a person approving or solemnising a marriage under religious rites to refuse to do so if they believe that a person’s gender has been acquired under a Gender Recognition Certificate (corresponding provision is made in s.5B of the Marriage Act 1949); that is, because they hold a religious belief that sex is immutable. There can be no justifiable basis in law for distinguishing between religious or philosophical belief..."

Karon Monaghan QC for the EHRC

Exceptions - such as here to solemnising religious marriage and elsewhere with regard to single-sex spaces - are made even for those with a GRC within the provision of the Equality Act.

Here, the immutability of sex means that those people with religious beliefs which prohibit same sex marriage are protected from being compelled to approve or solemnise relationships against their conscience or beliefs.

Yes, some people might find those religious beliefs offensive or harmful - and it would certainly not be an easy conversation for a priest to have should a male with a GRC stating they were female want to marry someone male in the Catholic Church - but both the GRA and Equality Act list exceptions due to the fundamental immutability and primacy of sex.

PopperUppleton · 28/04/2021 10:19

R0wantrees you're awesome. Literally. I am in awe of your knowledge, research skills and also your patience.

ArabellaScott · 28/04/2021 09:55

R0wantrees, you are an indefatigable wonder.

I can't even muster the slightest desire to read anything printed in the Indie these days. It's just become the most fact-free online whifflepaper.

R0wantrees · 28/04/2021 09:42

Critic Joshua Rozenberg
What is the case against Maya Forstater?
An employment judge may not believe sex is immutable — but will the appeal tribunal agree?

(extract)
"it is difficult to escape the conclusion that the tribunal regrets that the law has not moved further towards self-identification; and that its approach to this case has been coloured by a view of trans rights based upon acceptance of the proposition advanced by those on the other side of the debate from the claimant — which is that a person’s gender identity is (literally) their sex, regardless of biology, and that therefore to refer to a trans person by their biological sex in any circumstances is tantamount to harassment.

That is, of course, a belief that is as worthy of respect as the claimant’s, but it is emphatically not the law; and the tribunal’s role was to maintain the state’s neutrality in the debate between those with opposing beliefs, not to take sides.

Instead, although in (slightly) more moderate terms than the Twitter trolls who brand the claimant and those who share her beliefs “TERFs”, “bigots” and “transphobes”, the tribunal has engaged in precisely the “calumny” derided by JS Mill. It has aligned itself with one side in the debate. Based on that, has tarred any expression of the claimant’s views as offensive; and whether through a failure of understanding or imagination has failed to appreciate that, taken on their own terms, the claimant’s statements about biological sex are simply expressions of neutral fact.

Although this is not the relevant test, the claimant’s beliefs are actually on all fours with English law. It is all the more remarkable, then, that the tribunal should have found them to be not worthy of respect in a democratic society." (continues)
thecritic.co.uk/what-is-the-case-against-maya-forstater/

"Joshua Rozenberg QC (hon) is Britain's most experienced full-time legal commentator.
He is the only journalist to have been appointed as Queen's Counsel honoris causa. All other honorary silks since the late 19th century have been practitioners or legal academics.
He is an honorary Master of the Bench (bencher) of Gray's Inn and a non-executive board member of the Law Commission."
www.rozenberg.net/

R0wantrees · 28/04/2021 09:18

Helleofabore I trust that there is some sort of editorial review at Law Brief Publishing. It seems entirely possible that clarification of the actual law in the course of Maya Forstater's appeal case would disprove some of the author's beliefs.

Helleofabore · 28/04/2021 09:09

Thanks R0

Let’s hope that book might be out of date pretty quickly? I mean, not having read it but read enough from one of the authors to already know it is likely to be a SW interpretation of EA2010 provisions anyway.

Hopefully after Ann Sinnott’s case, this will be cleared up and render the relevant sections useless.

R0wantrees · 28/04/2021 09:01

It’s the Indy - not worth reading this ‘comic’. They don’t even pretend to hide their bias.

The Indepedent has published a number of propaganda pieces by transactivists which make false claims against women standing up for the protection of sex-based rights, Safeguarding and material reality.

What is pertinent in light of this article's claims and "overreach" is that one of the authors has recently published a 'legal guide':

‘A Practical Guide to Transgender Law’ by Robin Moira White & Nicola Newbegin
A comprehensive volume filling a notable gap in the legal library.

The book has introductory sections on the facts and language related to trans, and then substantial sections on the relevant parts of the Equality Act 2010 as related to transgender individuals, and the Gender Recognition Act 2004.

Specialist sections then follow, dealing with Associations, Asylum, Criminal Justice, Data Protection, Education, Employment, Family, Healthcare, Media, Name and Gender Marker Change; Politics and Parliament, Prison, Services, Sport, Gender-critical views, Example Policies and Reform
www.lawbriefpublishing.com/product/transgenderlaw/

Helleofabore · 28/04/2021 09:00

Remember windy the meanings of words have changed. Some terms don’t quite mean what they used to.

Helleofabore · 28/04/2021 08:58

Reading that article was like reading some posts here on MN. Heard it all before.

WindyPudding · 28/04/2021 08:53

No person is entitled to knowingly cause pain to another employee

But if it’s just having a different belief, it’s only causing pain if the other person can’t bear disagreement and that’s arguably their problem.

If your identity is that you’re black when you’re actually white, that you’re 6 foot tall when you’re actually 5 foot, or that you’re infallible when actually you messed up, people are allowed to disagree and believe otherwise, even if you don’t like it, even at work. If you are a Christian, people are allowed to say they don’t believe in god, even if it hurts your feelings, You are still protected against discrimination and bullying anyway, but not against people disagreeing with you - not actively to hurt you, but because they are allowed to have their own beliefs.

R0wantrees · 28/04/2021 08:51

The Critic
By Nathan Williams
27 April, 2021

'Sex deniers are the new flat earthers
Those who deny biological sex are dangerous and disingenuous; it’s time the rest of us stood up to them'

(extract)
"Places that once championed rationality and evidence like the Freethought Blog now explicitly ban those who dare present views on the existence of biological sex that they consider heretical.

When a biologist tweeted that stating biological facts is not bigotry, she was attacked by the very body you might expect to support her — The Royal Society of Biology — which labelled her comments as “transphobia”. Perhaps there was some detail of the science she got wrong — in which case you would expect this learned society to point out the error. But despite numerous attempts to find out what was incorrect about her statements, they have refused to answer. Even at its most censorious — the Catholic Church would tell blasphemers what their crime was. The modern witch-burners won’t even do that — they will rarely even discuss their claims with anyone who does not already share their beliefs. (continues)

...Many academics, particularly women, have faced threats and harassment merely for daring to talk about biological sex. There is no clearer demonstration that sex denialists are charlatans; their only weapons are creating fear and confusion. It’s time the rest of us stood up to them."
thecritic.co.uk/sex-deniers-are-the-new-flat-earthers/

R0wantrees · 28/04/2021 08:43

For responses to the article:
twitter.com/Independent/status/1387026398271922182

R0wantrees · 28/04/2021 08:39

No person is entitled to knowingly cause pain to another employee
And now to find that every day, when they go to work, someone can reject their identity in the most fundamentally abusive terms. It is unthinkable. "

54.2e "Similarly, it will not constitute unlawful conduct under the EqA10 to express beliefs in a discussion about sex and gender in terms which are appropriate to the particular context (even assuming that it takes place in circumstances covered by that Act), even if expressing those beliefs involves describing people with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment in a way which they or others find distressing or offensive. Circumstances will vary infinitely and context is all."
hiyamaya.files.wordpress.com/2021/04/forstater-eat-claimant-skeleton-argument-plus-low-res-pages-1-50.pdf

Maya Forstater
"The most critical places where the surpression of the ability to speak truthfully and use ordinary words to talk about sex is when people’s jobs involve the safeguarding of children and vulnerable people, and establishing and implementing policies for their protection."

What should be unthinkable is the prioritisation of adult male feelings/demands of identity validation over the welfare and Safeguarding of children and privacy, safety and dignity of women in workplaces.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 28/04/2021 08:35

@R0wantrees

Molly Mulready is closely involved with Jolyon Maugham/Good Law Project's 'Trans Defence Fund' and was asked to set up its advisory group. This is primarily concerned with seeking to overturn the Judicial Review findings of Bell Vs Tavistock NHS.
The independent were happy to publish the letter signed by Claire Maugham, the Mulreadys & friends which claimed that trans women experience "significantly higher levels of violence" on International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women & Girls:

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/olivia-colman-jameela-jamil-paloma-faith-trans-women-letter-b1761714.html

toffeebutterpopcorn · 28/04/2021 08:31

It’s the Indy - not worth reading this ‘comic’. They don’t even pretend to hide their bias.

bellinisurge · 28/04/2021 08:29

David Bowie, as always, pretty much nailed it. Boys Keep Swinging.

Nonmaquillee · 28/04/2021 08:27

Not clicking.
It's a dreadful "newspaper", peopled by the blinkered "my view is the only one that counts" wokerati.