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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender instead of sex in work diversity training

54 replies

FuriousFemale · 27/04/2021 12:41

I did the online diversity and inclusion training at work recently. It lists characteristics that people may experience discrimination against. It doesn't specifically mention the equality act but the list is identical to the characteristics in the act accept gender is used instead of sex.

I want to raise this but I'm not sure how to do this safely. There should be absolutely nothing controversial about what I want to say but I've seen enough recently to know speaking up can be risky.

Has anyone challenged something like this before? How did you go about it and what was the reaction like?

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PopperUppleton · 27/04/2021 17:09

@Ereshkigalangcleg

course they are - gender reassignment is also a protected characteristic

"Non binary" people were not specifically covered by "gender reassignment", a point the government acknowledged in 2016, and I believe the court's interpretation was based on the person's MTF trans identity and the treatment received due to that, and the spin put on it by activists is wrong.

Ah, I didn't know that, thanks. Don't want to get this wrong, as we know people jump on you for even a mild spelling mistake if they think you're transphobic.

I don't remember it being JLR as I am a huge Land Rover fan so I think I would have noticed, but I was under stress bringing it up so I may well be wrong Smile

It's a new job for me and it's Civil Service...

RedToothBrush · 27/04/2021 17:07

@sashh

If the law says the word 'sex' then the legal word is 'sex' not 'gender'. You can't just change the law.

Could you tell the DWP? I've been corresponding with them for over 6 months, they just say, "It's more inclusive"

They are fucknuggets then.

But then we know the DWP has form for acting unlawfully.

PopperUppleton · 27/04/2021 17:04

@Erkrie

Someone linked a court case in the chat that apparently showed the court had conceded that a non-binary person was covered by the Act

What was the court case, can you remember?

Unfortunately not, the session was back in Feb and the chat's now fallen off. I was also standing my ground with the sex versus gender thing in what felt quite a hostile space, and I was shaking. Wish I'd paid more attention and read the thing properly

sashh · 27/04/2021 16:53

If the law says the word 'sex' then the legal word is 'sex' not 'gender'. You can't just change the law.

Could you tell the DWP? I've been corresponding with them for over 6 months, they just say, "It's more inclusive"

Erkrie · 27/04/2021 16:24

Ahh, ok, just had a look, it's seems they were protected under gender reassignment because they had 'transitioned' from m to f. Always useful to be aware of these things. Thanks. 👍

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/04/2021 16:18

This also was an employment tribunal, not a legal precedent.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/04/2021 16:16

course they are - gender reassignment is also a protected characteristic

"Non binary" people were not specifically covered by "gender reassignment", a point the government acknowledged in 2016, and I believe the court's interpretation was based on the person's MTF trans identity and the treatment received due to that, and the spin put on it by activists is wrong.

R0wantrees · 27/04/2021 16:12

Someone linked a court case in the chat that apparently showed the court had conceded that a non-binary person was covered by the Act

Its likely the Jaguar Landrover employment tribunal. My understanding is that his does not do everything that those invested in it would have everyone believe.

RedToothBrush · 27/04/2021 16:07

@popcornsong

I recently queried my local council (East of England) whose Equality Policy had listed gender instead of sex: Their reply was: I can see that the Policy does not list ‘sex’ but instead lists ‘gender’. As you will be aware, in addition to ‘sex’ which relates to just a man or a woman, ‘gender’ also includes non-binary and other sex definitions. I am aware that the Equality Act 2010 does not specifically mention people who identify under these other definitions but, in practice, the Council does give due consideration to the wider section of the community defined by gender. I answered this rubbish with: I am afraid this does not deal satisfactorily with my complaint. Sex and gender do not mean the same thing. Sex is the protected characteristic and you do not list it. I cannot see that you have any right to change the wording of an act of law. Is it the case that you refuse to alter your wording to conform with the Equality Act? How is non-binary a sex definition? Sex is binary. You can only be male or female. What other “sex definitions” do you have in mind? What other sexes are there? Can you explain how you "give consideration to the wider section of the community defined by gender"? How would you define people’s gender? Swiftly got a reply saying they would amend policy and show sex not gender. Definitely always worth pursuing this.
The council don't get to define definitions in law.

If the law says the word 'sex' then the legal word is 'sex' not 'gender'. You can't just change the law.

Perhaps you should ask they to consult with a lawyer and ask them about how it would go down if they decided to redefine the word.

Indeed deciding to do this unilaterally would put them at risk of the following paragraph in the EA2010:

19 Indirect Discrimination

(1)A person (A) discriminates against another (B) if A applies to B a provision, criterion or practice which is discriminatory in relation to a relevant protected characteristic of B's.
(2)For the purposes of subsection (1), a provision, criterion or practice is discriminatory in relation to a relevant protected characteristic of B's if—

(a)A applies, or would apply, it to persons with whom B does not share the characteristic,
(b)it puts, or would put, persons with whom B shares the characteristic at a particular disadvantage when compared with persons with whom B does not share it,
(c)it puts, or would put, B at that disadvantage, and
(d)A cannot show it to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

Its like saying that if we changed the word 'race' to 'non-white' because whites are more priviledged and therefore don't need the legal protection in the Equality Act they might be entitled to because they are a different nationality.

Its nonsense. And its discriminatory.

And more importantly not legal.

Erkrie · 27/04/2021 15:58

Someone linked a court case in the chat that apparently showed the court had conceded that a non-binary person was covered by the Act

What was the court case, can you remember?

PopperUppleton · 27/04/2021 15:47

I had this. On the official intranet list it says 'sex' but in the training session, sex has been replaced by gender. I queried it and asked if they were quoting from the Equality Act 2010 and if they thought it was appropriate to rewrite an Act of Parliament? Lots of people challenged me saying it was more inclusive. I replied everyone has a sex but not everyone has a gender (this was on a Teams call). Someone linked a court case in the chat that apparently showed the court had conceded that a non-binary person was covered by the Act (🙄 of course they are - gender reassignment is also a protected characteristic). This apparently proves that the Equality Act is wrong.

The trainers said they would check, but I bet they haven't. It was uncomfortable and I now think I've been labelled 'one of those'. A lot of people appeared to take issue with my raising it.

sashh · 27/04/2021 14:13

Maybe email asking if the training will include reference to the Equality Act as you are unsure how it affects you in the workplace and that it would be an opportunity for you and your colleagues to understand the legal obligations of yourself as an individual and as a representative of the company.

R0wantrees · 27/04/2021 14:11

The phrase "potentially getting ahead of the law" is useful.

R0wantrees · 27/04/2021 14:01

I think this is why there is absolutely no mention of the equality act even though it is listing all but 1 of the protected characteristics from the equality act

A very simple initial enquiry seeking clarification should elicit both recognition that the Equality Act 2010 is the primary relevant legislation informing Diversity & Inclusion policies as well as some indication as to the basis for decision making in the training.

popcornsong · 27/04/2021 13:56

I recently queried my local council (East of England) whose Equality Policy had listed gender instead of sex: Their reply was:
I can see that the Policy does not list ‘sex’ but instead lists ‘gender’. As you will be aware, in addition to ‘sex’ which relates to just a man or a woman, ‘gender’ also includes non-binary and other sex definitions. I am aware that the Equality Act 2010 does not specifically mention people who identify under these other definitions but, in practice, the Council does give due consideration to the wider section of the community defined by gender.
I answered this rubbish with: I am afraid this does not deal satisfactorily with my complaint. Sex and gender do not mean the same thing. Sex is the protected characteristic and you do not list it. I cannot see that you have any right to change the wording of an act of law. Is it the case that you refuse to alter your wording to conform with the Equality Act?
How is non-binary a sex definition? Sex is binary. You can only be male or female. What other “sex definitions” do you have in mind? What other sexes are there?
Can you explain how you "give consideration to the wider section of the community defined by gender"? How would you define people’s gender?
Swiftly got a reply saying they would amend policy and show sex not gender. Definitely always worth pursuing this.

FuriousFemale · 27/04/2021 13:45

@R0wantrees I think this is why there is absolutely no mention of the equality act even though it is listing all but 1 of the protected characteristics from the equality act

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R0wantrees · 27/04/2021 13:37

The thing that makes me think it might not be well received is that it states they deliberately haven't used sex (there is a write up for each characteristic).

The Equality Act 2010 is legislation which is absolutely clear that the protected characteristic is sex, not gender. Sex and gender reassignment are defined in the Act, gender is not.
An organisation misrepresenting this opens itself up to potential issues. Correctly listing sex and gender reassignment ensures that everyone might be protected from discrimination.
Removing 'sex' prevents monitoring of sex discrimination.

Ohdeariedear · 27/04/2021 13:27

I’d go back and ask what their reasoning is behind “deliberately changing sex to gender” (use whatever wording they used) as it is of course sex that is the protected characteristic, not gender and it’s important not to get the two confused in this legal context.

R0wantrees · 27/04/2021 13:25

I've queried it with a number of organisations and recommend taking a curious and factual tone eg "I was surprised to see that 'gender' was referred to given that the nine protected characteristics of Equality Act 2010 are..."

AssassinatedBeauty · 27/04/2021 13:23

If they state they've deliberately used the word "gender" instead of "sex" then that is a clear admission that they have deliberately varied from the EA 2010 wording. I would ask them to change this to comply with the law, using the resources linked R0wantrees post, as they have surely got themselves confused around this issue and have made an error with this.

R0wantrees · 27/04/2021 13:19

I want to raise this but I'm not sure how to do this safely. There should be absolutely nothing controversial about what I want to say but I've seen enough recently to know speaking up can be risky.

Has anyone challenged something like this before? How did you go about it and what was the reaction like?

Its been done many times by women in respect of schools, workplaces, local authorities etc. Communication is best kept brief and factual confirming that the protected characteristics referred to were those of Equality Act 2010 legislation and querying the apparent error.
In most cases organisations' error has been made in good faith and they should of course wish to correct this

womansplaceuk.org/sex-is-a-protected-characteristic/

www.sexnotgender.info/

FuriousFemale · 27/04/2021 13:19

oops anonymous

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FuriousFemale · 27/04/2021 13:19

I don't want to let this lie. I'm fuming (as per my username) but I don't want to risk my career. Would anonomous be the way to go or would it not be taketh seriously?

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Mistressinthetulips · 27/04/2021 13:16

I've queried it in one place and it was changed, queried elsewhere and was told I was wrong!

FuriousFemale · 27/04/2021 13:16

The thing that makes me think it might not be well received is that it states they deliberately haven't used sex (there is a write up for each characteristic).

So it's not a case of thinking sex and gender are synonymous. It's very much deliberate.

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